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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #11  
Old 07-10-2017, 11:59 AM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Hi Richard.

Nothing wrong with a hypothetical scenario as far as I'm concerned. I've been known to partake of a few myself.

One of the main points that I've had against Barnett as the killer of Kelly is that he would have been a well known face around Millers' Court and so more likely than most to get recognised. Also as her ex he would have been one of the first to get official attention? Doesn't completely count him out of course.

I wonder if George Hutchinson knew Barnett? If Hutchinson was acquainted with Kelly as he claimed it must at least have been possible that he also knew Joe. If only by sight or name.

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  #12  
Old 07-11-2017, 05:41 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Hi Richard,

The notion that Barnett may be more culpable in this murder is intriguing of course, but I suggest you refrain from making this about a story that also might tie him in to other alleged Ripper murders, like in post #8.

The evidence points to someone Mary knew, she was involved in a triangle with another Joe...which is often a catalyst for violence when discovered, its a distinct possibility that the killer was allowed by Mary to enter the room, whether he arrived alone, or as some believe, she later that night brought home a client. Since there is no precedent at all for the latter, and a real possibility that since she now had the room alone paramours could slip into the court and tap on her window or door at any time day or night, I defer to the first scenario. Which also might tie in well with the cry out near 4am.

Barnett knew about the latch method, he may have had a grudge if he discovered she had been seeing someone else... while he was living there and supporting her, and he would have been allowed by Mary to enter that room if he knocked late at night.

The issue with this premise is that the same circumstances might exist with her and Joe #2. A Joe may have killed her, which one is a puzzle.
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  #13  
Old 07-11-2017, 09:36 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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The evidence points to someone Mary knew, she was involved in a triangle with another Joe...which is often a catalyst for violence when discovered
There's violence and then there's violence, Michael.
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  #14  
Old 07-11-2017, 09:52 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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There's violence and then there's violence, Michael.
There is evidence of everyday violence there Harry...her defense wounds and the facial slashes for 2 examples. The utter destruction of Mary need not have been a motive at all, it may only have occurred because her killer deteriorated mentally during this attack...or it may have occurred to create a scenario where an unidentified killer suspected of other mutilation murders is the obvious suspect. Thereby directing suspicions away from her personal acquaintances.

Thing is...these mutilations were not focused on the abdomen, (Polly and Annies were), these extractions led to the removal of organs previously sought but strangely left behind in odd placements..(under her head, by her feet),...and there is quite a bit of removal of flesh from bone, something not seen in any other alleged Ripper murder.

The carnage was not focused at all, but some angry wounds were.
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  #15  
Old 07-11-2017, 11:28 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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There is evidence of everyday violence there Harry...her defense wounds and the facial slashes for 2 examples. The utter destruction of Mary need not have been a motive at all, it may only have occurred because her killer deteriorated mentally during this attack...or it may have occurred to create a scenario where an unidentified killer suspected of other mutilation murders is the obvious suspect. Thereby directing suspicions away from her personal acquaintances.

Thing is...these mutilations were not focused on the abdomen, (Polly and Annies were), these extractions led to the removal of organs previously sought but strangely left behind in odd placements..(under her head, by her feet),...and there is quite a bit of removal of flesh from bone, something not seen in any other alleged Ripper murder.

The carnage was not focused at all, but some angry wounds were.
Catherine Eddowes' killer also mutilated the face. Not to the same extent, sure, but this trajectory fits with a serial killer whose violence was increasing with each victim.

Furthermore, don't you see the contradiction in claiming that MJK's murder was a copycat on account of the extreme overkill, whilst arguing that the killer butchered her to this extent to frame the Ripper?
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  #16  
Old 07-11-2017, 01:38 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Catherine Eddowes' killer also mutilated the face. Not to the same extent, sure, but this trajectory fits with a serial killer whose violence was increasing with each victim.

Furthermore, don't you see the contradiction in claiming that MJK's murder was a copycat on account of the extreme overkill, whilst arguing that the killer butchered her to this extent to frame the Ripper?
I don't claim that Marys killing was a copycat, it is hardly reminiscent of either of the first 2 Canonical murders, the ONLY ones I'm convinced that were by the same lone individual killer. I suggest that slicing her up suggests a killer who slices up women, the fact that almost all the actions taken were superfluous and completely unnecessary to extract and remove her heart...which is the only organ taken....shows us that the focus demonstrated in Annies killing for example is lacking in the room 13 killing.

I only speculate about serial killers when there is some evidence of one. In 5 murders, when 2 or 3 are very unlike the other 2, I don't see a series. I see a double murder, maybe 3.
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  #17  
Old 07-12-2017, 04:22 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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I don't claim that Marys killing was a copycat, it is hardly reminiscent of either of the first 2 Canonical murders, the ONLY ones I'm convinced that were by the same lone individual killer. I suggest that slicing her up suggests a killer who slices up women, the fact that almost all the actions taken were superfluous and completely unnecessary to extract and remove her heart...which is the only organ taken....shows us that the focus demonstrated in Annies killing for example is lacking in the room 13 killing.

I only speculate about serial killers when there is some evidence of one. In 5 murders, when 2 or 3 are very unlike the other 2, I don't see a series. I see a double murder, maybe 3.
Statistically, I'll take a post-mortem mutilator whose signature was evolving/escalating rather than multiple killers treading on each other's toes in a small corner of the East End.
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2017, 12:29 PM
John Wheat John Wheat is offline
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Statistically, I'll take a post-mortem mutilator whose signature was evolving/escalating rather than multiple killers treading on each other's toes in a small corner of the East End.
I will too Harry.
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  #19  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:48 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I believe that there is already proof that multiple killers existed within the confines of the East End during the Fall of Terror, so its an argument that history has already dealt with. There were multiple killers, lets just look for better arguments as to why 4 of the Five women suspected of being connected by the same lone killer were mutilated.

Were they mutilated in similar fashion? Well..., yes..., and no. Were there specific actions that may have revealed the objective of the killings? Some, yes. Did all the women match in profile? Yes...., and no. Is there any evidence that suggests prior knowledge of each other, killer and victim, prior to the murder? Well, no.....and yes.

The list of contrary's goes on and on. And this is only addressing a mere 5 of the 13 women in the Unsolved Files for that period.

In the case of the Kelly murder, there is evidence of prior knowledge between victim and predator, there was a means of access to the room that very few people knew of, and you can fairly say that some of Marys injuries were caused by angry motions, an emotional commitment compared to what were "surgicalesque" cuts on Annie. Those factors suggest that Barnett should have been looked at very closely, and that the other Joe she acknowledged she was seeing should have been as well. The problem is we don't know who he was, only that he sometimes treated Mary roughly.
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  #20  
Old 08-28-2017, 04:56 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Quote:
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In the case of the Kelly murder, there is evidence of prior knowledge between victim and predator
There isn't, Michael. I could list horrific murders with no prior connection between killer & victim.

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there was a means of access to the room that very few people knew of
Unless he was already in there, i.e. a punter.

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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
and you can fairly say that some of Marys injuries were caused by angry motions, an emotional commitment compared to what were "surgicalesque" cuts on Annie.
Or maybe Mary Kelly was more extensively mutilated because she was killed indoors and because she was the most physically attractive of the victims? If this was a serial killer who enjoyed dehumanizing women (e.g. mutilating & removing their reproductive organs), that would make perfect sense.
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