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  #3491  
Old 10-25-2016, 10:19 AM
cobalt cobalt is offline
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JPR1975,

I think there are too many players in your conspiracy; besides it would not make much sense for France to expend his energies directing the police towards Hanratty if he himself was the supplier of the gun. And what if Hanratty, facing the inevitability of the gallows, had decided to name names? Or even worse Hanratty might earlier, having seen the ropiness of the prosecution case, tried to turn Queen’s Evidence.

If there was any conspiracy in the early days of the investigation it seems more likely to have been fingering Alphon. He was the man allegedly reported for his odd behavior in a hotel and brought to police attention well before James Ryan. (I think it just as likely the police approached the hotel after ‘information received from reliable sources.’) The cartridge cases at the Vienna Hotel were as capable of ‘framing’ Alphon as much as they were Hanratty. The ID composite wasn’t doing him any favours either. His alibi was never scrutinized the way Hanratty’s later was, and may have been equally porous. (I don’t think your mother is the most credible alibi witness.) If Alphon’s rambling performance in the Paris hotel is any guide, then a jury viewing him in the dock would have needed little convincing that he was the type of character who could drive around Slough for a few hours engaging in pointless narrative. So if there was indeed a conspiracy, and it was against Alphon, then he must have been thankful that Valerie Storie was not ‘coached’ beforehand.

I have little doubt there was a conspiracy to some extent. The murderer would hardly have taken public transport then walked unnoticed to the corn field carrying a gun and a bag of ammunition. Nor could he have taken a taxi (that would have been checked surely) or abandoned a stolen car, so he was almost certainly driven close to the spot by person or persons unknown.
Then there is the curious case of the murder car which yielded no forensic evidence. Either this was false information presented by the prosecution, or the murderer received assistance in the cleaning of the car. A conspiracy either way.
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  #3492  
Old 10-25-2016, 10:27 AM
ansonman ansonman is offline
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I think it is a mistake and diversion to get hung up on VS's motivation when it comes to her identification of Hanratty. The facts are these:

She was an entirely unreliable witness

She was unwavering in her insistance that Hanratty was the murderer

I don't think she lied in her belief that Hanratty was the man.

What's important is that she wasn't in a position to identify who was responsible for the crimes.

Crucially, her unreliable identification and unwavering belief that JH was guilty was the only critical evidence that linked JH to the crime. And resulted in his execution.

I do agree that having steadfastly maintained this position at the trial, she could hardly move away from it afterwards.

Ansonman
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  #3493  
Old 10-25-2016, 11:52 AM
moste moste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louisa View Post
Yes, she probably did, from what she had been told.

She took 20 minutes to identify him. They each had to say "Be quiet, will you? I'm thinking"

Although I suspect she already knew who to pick out. Taking her time and asking them to speak was just to make it look more plausible. Acott could not risk her picking the 'wrong' man again and I suspect she had been 'coached' beforehand.

Didn't he touch her on the shoulder and say "Good girl" afterwards?
The whole thing was a Sham.At almost every turn,you can pick the prosecution,and the police involvement to piece.
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  #3494  
Old 10-25-2016, 12:38 PM
moste moste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
She did in fact tell the police, prior to ID Parade No 2, that her memory of the man was fading. However, as she later stated after the parade, as soon as she saw Hanratty she knew he was the man. I can't accept that she had no idea what her attacker looked like.

With regard to Hanratty's appearance, Kleinmann, who was present at the parade (even though he kept everyone waiting by turning up late), rejected Acott's suggestion that all the men on the parade wear surgeon's caps to cover their hair. His argument was that he knew that it was Hanratty's eyes that were the giveaway, and wished to divert attention from them to his weird hair. It didn't work.

Hanratty was actually at the Frances' flat with the family watching TV when the Identikit images were shown on the screen. Charlotte France looked at them and said to Hanratty, "Doesn't that one look like you?" So I would have to say that it couldn't have been all that inaccurate.

Graham
Misleading : France's wife. Would obviously have been referring to the police ID picture ,not Stories.
Yes thats right, the Police ID picture, (supposedly supplied by other witnesses)
I reckon they meant to have the right hand picture as Stories,but they even managed to bungle that too,
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  #3495  
Old 10-25-2016, 01:11 PM
moste moste is offline
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
I agree it is hard to understand why Hanratty, or anyone really, was in that cornfield with a gun. I’ve always assumed he had come from Maidenhead which is about an hour away by foot – simply because it was mentioned. If it was Hanratty’s first attempt at a hold up then perhaps he would not want to do it in an area in which he was known to have burgled before.

In any case I think the primary objective was something else and this went wrong, or his nerve failed, and he stumbled upon the car by accident.

I do not think it was planned because:

1. Valerie and Mike could not easily have been followed because they did not go straight from the Old Station Inn to the cornfield; they went somewhere else first and only moved on later. Someone must have pointed this out to Woffinden after his book came out, because he corrected it in later editions. (Graham spotted this.)

2. Although Valerie said “we had been in the car to that particular spot quite a few times” she also said “we had been there before only a couple of times during the last three months”.

So if a gunman was targeting them, it would have been a remarkable stroke of luck for him to have gone to the cornfield entrance at the same time they chose to be there.
It should be noted in your item (1) Indirect journey ,we are talking( first stop )of Huntercombe lane south ,2 farmers fields away from the Marsh Lane corn field, and Incidently only 500 yards from Valerie's front door in Anthony Way.
Before anyone reaches for their map, the link ,motorway slip road did not exist in 61 and a straight run from Huntercombe Lane to the council estate via a country lane I believe was extant.Almost certainly spotted here by a motorcyclist
I have long thought this brief detour and pull in,indicative of something odd going on,since they knew the area very well,and were in habit of heading over to the corn field after a drinkipoos.
Anyhow, I see nothing in their actions that would dissuade a person intent on carjacking them ,from following up on the plan ,unlike, (if as you say )
Woffinden ,and yourself.
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  #3496  
Old 10-25-2016, 01:22 PM
moste moste is offline
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Valerie stating her visits with Mike to the cornfield 'a couple of times' over the last few months,may really mean,4 or 5 times!
Didn't she state she had visited Mikes home on a couple of occasions.Janet remembers only once?
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  #3497  
Old 10-25-2016, 02:00 PM
louisa louisa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
JPR1975,

I think there are too many players in your conspiracy; besides it would not make much sense for France to expend his energies directing the police towards Hanratty if he himself was the supplier of the gun. And what if Hanratty, facing the inevitability of the gallows, had decided to name names? Or even worse Hanratty might earlier, having seen the ropiness of the prosecution case, tried to turn Queen’s Evidence.

If there was any conspiracy in the early days of the investigation it seems more likely to have been fingering Alphon. He was the man allegedly reported for his odd behavior in a hotel and brought to police attention well before James Ryan. (I think it just as likely the police approached the hotel after ‘information received from reliable sources.’) The cartridge cases at the Vienna Hotel were as capable of ‘framing’ Alphon as much as they were Hanratty. The ID composite wasn’t doing him any favours either. His alibi was never scrutinized the way Hanratty’s later was, and may have been equally porous. (I don’t think your mother is the most credible alibi witness.) If Alphon’s rambling performance in the Paris hotel is any guide, then a jury viewing him in the dock would have needed little convincing that he was the type of character who could drive around Slough for a few hours engaging in pointless narrative. So if there was indeed a conspiracy, and it was against Alphon, then he must have been thankful that Valerie Storie was not ‘coached’ beforehand.

I have little doubt there was a conspiracy to some extent. The murderer would hardly have taken public transport then walked unnoticed to the corn field carrying a gun and a bag of ammunition. Nor could he have taken a taxi (that would have been checked surely) or abandoned a stolen car, so he was almost certainly driven close to the spot by person or persons unknown.
Then there is the curious case of the murder car which yielded no forensic evidence. Either this was false information presented by the prosecution, or the murderer received assistance in the cleaning of the car. A conspiracy either way.
Good post Cobalt. A lot of food for thought there.

I would say that Alphon was exactly the type of man who would walk to a corn field carrying a gun and a bag of ammo. Those items would fit inside an ordinary carrier bag. The area seems quite remote and wouldn't have been lit too well.

And I tend to believe he had already been in the area prior to this, doing a bit of reconnoitre.
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  #3498  
Old 10-25-2016, 02:01 PM
louisa louisa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moste View Post
Valerie stating her visits with Mike to the cornfield 'a couple of times' over the last few months,may really mean,4 or 5 times!
Didn't she state she had visited Mikes home on a couple of occasions.Janet remembers only once?
That's probably because Janet was out on the other occasion.
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  #3499  
Old 10-25-2016, 02:04 PM
louisa louisa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moste View Post
Misleading : France's wife. Would obviously have been referring to the police ID picture ,not Stories.
Yes thats right, the Police ID picture, (supposedly supplied by other witnesses)
I reckon they meant to have the right hand picture as Stories,but they even managed to bungle that too,
I believe that could have been the case. I've often wondered why Charlotte France said the ID pic looked like Hanratty.
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  #3500  
Old 10-26-2016, 01:38 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
We can fathom over this case for the next hundred years, and still find conspiracy angles.
The fact of the matter is James Hanratty was found guilty of murder , and hanged after an appeal failed.
He was identified by the person he tried to kill Valerie Storie, she remained adamant throughout her life , there was no mistake.
DNA, a few years ago conclusively proofed that he was guilty, albeit contamination is always possible.
The reason why many people of this country have doubted his guilt, is the campaign waged by many celebrities at the time, and a relentless struggle by his family to save him. the fact that Hanratty pleaded with them, he was innocent right to the end , also sticks in peoples minds,as a possibility of innocence.
Positively thinking, the only way Hanratty knew of saving his neck, was to swear innocence, he knew his family would fight tooth and nail for his conviction to be overturned, and he maintained that to the very end.
Everyone likes a mystery , that is why we remain on the Casebook site, but in the case of the A6 murder, in my opinion there is none, its the result of a person of limited intelligence , attempting to force a lift with a loaded gun, and the entire episode spiralled out of control. JH, never ''Finked'' straight then, neither events after.
I would be very shocked to discover,that in this case the country hanged the wrong man.
Just my opinion .
Regards Richard.
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