Murder Scene Management

[Monty]

White doesn't actually name Mitre Square, people have just assumed it.

Yes, there is a lot of ignorance of this precise matter. And I haven't even started on his rank, which poses many locational questions.

Monty

[Stewart P Evans]

White

White doesn't actually name Mitre Square, people have just assumed it.
Yes, there is a lot of ignorance of this precise matter. And I haven't even started on his rank, which poses many locational questions.
Monty

White doesn't actually state anything. It's all in an article written about him, by a journalist, after his death. In view of a more sober obituary written at the same time, which shows this story to be an apparent invention, no credence should be placed on it. In fact to use it to bolster a dubious theory hints of desperation.

[Monty]

White doesn't actually state anything. It's all in an article written about him, by a journalist, after his death. In view of a more sober obituary written at the same time, which shows this story to be an apparent invention, no credence should be placed on it. In fact to use it to bolster a dubious theory hints of desperation.

Absolutely Stewart,

The article appeared in the Peoples Journal in 1919, 31 years after the alleged event.

Monty

[lynn cates]

study

Hello Jon.

"Whoever concocted this scenario is not only ignorant of police procedure, but also ignorant of the details of the case as has been handed down to us."

And that is frequently the case with someone who is theorising.

But first, the case should STUDIED.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

The Daily Mail article tells us Simpson obtained permission to take the cloth from his superiors.
A video provided in that article has Edwards telling us that Simpson accompanied the body to the mortuary (Golden Lane), and it was there where he obtained permission to take the cloth.

So what are we supposed to believe?
That there were Met officers at Golden Lane?
That there was a Met officer superior to Simpson (Act. Sergeant) who allowed him to take evidence away?

Whoever concocted this scenario is not only ignorant of police procedure, but also ignorant of the details of the case as has been handed down to us.

Hello Jon,

In the radio interview on his website, Edwards claims " he...(Amos Simpson)... asked for the shawl as a souvenir on his way to the mortuary"


you pays yer money.....


and that, imho, is what all this is about.

MONEY


regards

Phil

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding the White story, I believe it is worth noting that no fewer than 2 policeman entered the square that night just before the murder, 3 city detectives were searching nearby alleys and lanes...(one wonders why since there had been no previous murders in the city, why were these detectives out after midnight searching alleys....), one active policeman lived in the square itself with a view from his bedroom of the murder scene, and one retired policeman worked there.

If you do the math, Kate and her sailor man seem to be the only people in that immediate area that were not affiliated with the police. Although Kate had just been released by them.

Was she watched? Were the police acting on some information that prompted them to keep an eye on her after her release. One can only guess what she might have said while under the influence to them, but we do know that she claimed shortly before her murder that she knew the man who was doing these terrible crimes and intended to collect a reward for turning him in.

Sounds like a potential murder motive in the works to me.

Were they watching with the hope that she would meet up with the killer or someone who could lead them to the killer? Was she used as "bait"?

I surely don't know, and neither do the people who would disagree that we should even be asking this question.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

Regarding the White story, I believe it is worth noting that no fewer than 2 policeman entered the square that night just before the murder, 3 city detectives were searching nearby alleys and lanes...(one wonders why since there had been no previous murders in the city, why were these detectives out after midnight searching alleys....), one active policeman lived in the square itself with a view from his bedroom of the murder scene, and one retired policeman worked there.

If you do the math, Kate and her sailor man seem to be the only people in that immediate area that were not affiliated with the police. Although Kate had just been released by them.

Was she watched? Were the police acting on some information that prompted them to keep an eye on her after her release. One can only guess what she might have said while under the influence to them, but we do know that she claimed shortly before her murder that she knew the man who was doing these terrible crimes and intended to collect a reward for turning him in.

Sounds like a potential murder motive in the works to me.

Were they watching with the hope that she would meet up with the killer or someone who could lead them to the killer? Was she used as "bait"?

I surely don't know, and neither do the people who would disagree that we should even be asking this question.

Cheers

Interesting post, Michael, which raises some interesting questions. I think that she was said to have claimed to know the identity of the murderer. It may or may not be true that she actually made such a claim. Personally I think it quite likely.

[Penhalion]

" One can only guess what she might have said while under the influence to them, but we do know that she claimed shortly before her murder that she knew the man who was doing these terrible crimes and intended to collect a reward for turning him in."

And yet having just been in police custody for a number of hours, presumably in a pliable state given her drunkenness, there's no record of her sharing that information with the police, no record of the police acting on any information she might have given them, and another murder happening after hers which pretty much says the police didn't know who JtR really was. I think Kate was just blowing smoke. Its easy to talk big with friends but in the end, I don't think she knew anything more than anyone else.

[Michael W Richards]

" One can only guess what she might have said while under the influence to them, but we do know that she claimed shortly before her murder that she knew the man who was doing these terrible crimes and intended to collect a reward for turning him in."

And yet having just been in police custody for a number of hours, presumably in a pliable state given her drunkenness, there's no record of her sharing that information with the police, no record of the police acting on any information she might have given them, and another murder happening after hers which pretty much says the police didn't know who JtR really was. I think Kate was just blowing smoke. Its easy to talk big with friends but in the end, I don't think she knew anything more than anyone else.

I find her choice of name when she is booked to be somewhat revealing on this issue myself, I think she realized she was hammered and had maybe said to much that afternoon,....(when she made a liaison arrangement for later that night perhaps, explaining why someone might have bought her drinks),...and she effectively clammed up,... and I believe made a cover story type remark about her expected "hiding" when she left. And then turned left out the door.

When she is seen with Sailor Man she has a hand on his chest...imagine if you will that she was supposed to meet someone at 12 lets say, and when she finally gets there at around half past 1, she is relieved to see the man she is supposed to meet stuck around. She rushes up to him and places her hand on his chest...."Im so thankful you waited for me". Why would he stick around? Because he was or worked for the man that Kate is planning on turning in to the police. Kate had to be silenced.

The slippery thing is though that by her booking info, she last identifies herself as Mary Ann Kelly. After just 24 hours earlier calling herself Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset St. Hmm. Is it possible that the killer thought he was meeting with someone by that name, maybe she used it that afternoon with whomever she met with. One wonders of the possible significance when considering the next Ripper victims name.....and address.

Cheers

[Penhalion]

If they mistook Kate Eddowes for Mary Jane Kelly, they must have had absolutely NO IDEA what the person they were looking for looked like.

Kate Eddowes- mid 40's and "At the time of her death she is 5 feet tall, has hazel eyes and dark auburn hair."

Mary Jane Kelly- Mid 20's "She was 5' 7" tall and stout. She had blonde hair, blue eyes and a fair complexion."

Aside from the name issue which is odd but, when dealing with a woman who is literally falling down drunk, could have an innocuous explanation, they are absolutely NOTHING alike.

So what you seem to be saying is that whoever wanted her dead either couldn't tell these two women apart or sent someone to kill a woman based only on a name and general location. Hmmmmm......

[Michael W Richards]

So what you seem to be saying is that whoever wanted her dead either couldn't tell these two women apart or sent someone to kill a woman based only on a name and general location. Hmmmmm......

I think sent myself, since If its correct that she intended to turn someone in for the reward money, then its probable she knew what he looked like, and vice versa.

Kates use of a pseudonym isn't remarkable, almost all the women we learn about in this study have at least one, but her use of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset St, followed within the same 24 hours with Mary Ann Kelly of Fashion Street, seem to indicate some insistence on using the Kelly surname. We don't hear of her ever calling herself Kate Kelly, which would be a pseudonym since she wasn't married to John, even though she did allow herself to be called Kate Conway, when not married... but with him. The fact that Mary Jane Kelly, 6 Dorset Street is within the two names might well be what eventually leads the killer to Mary.

Thing is though, it would appear Mary Jane Kelly wasn't really her name either, since she has been virtually untraceable by any information we are provided by her friends.

Cheers

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

A little teaser for you to consider.

Kate Eddowes had allegedly stated that she knew the identity of the killer.

A short time later, she gets locked up for being drunk.

Upon realease, she gets murdered by supposedly this same killer.

Most drunk people lose their inhibitions. People tend to speak more openly and louder.

If said killer overheard the drunk Eddowes making her claim that night... what would he have done?


best w4shes

Phil

[Monty]

Some seem to have this tread confused with another.

Monty

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike,

A little teaser for you to consider.

Kate Eddowes had allegedly stated that she knew the identity of the killer.

A short time later, she gets locked up for being drunk.

Upon realease, she gets murdered by supposedly this same killer.

Most drunk people lose their inhibitions. People tend to speak more openly and louder.

If said killer overheard the drunk Eddowes making her claim that night... what would he have done?


best w4shes

Phil

My thinking is that perhaps she was getting drunk with friends of the man she intended to turn in Phil, they plied her with drink to get the story from her, and reported it back to the man she thought responsible for the murders. And I don't think he was Sailor Man.

Cheers