Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The name's Bond

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    What slash & grab artist would even avoid the umbilicus, be it precisely or hastily, in order to open the abdomen?
    What person with more than basic anatomical knowledge would create a narrow, practically rectangular, tongue of skin to avoid the navel, when with significantly less effort he could "slightly curve" around it, as per the description of the Virchow technique?
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • On balance, I would say it is far easier for a medical man to randomly slice away to his hearts content, than for a layperson to correctly & surgically remove an organ.

      Why should a medical man, clearly unbalanced, perhaps even to some degree drunk at the time, even act like he is sober and in the operating theatre, when he is mutilating a victim?

      I don't see the need to type-cast the killer.

      It's like saying that drunk driver swerving down the road couldn't possibly be a policeman, they would know better, and yet...

      "A Durham police officer has been charged with impaired driving and failure to report after fleeing the scene of an accident in Bowmanville on Saturday."

      The fact Bond deduced the slashing betrayed no sign of experience, does not mean that swerving car showed no signs of an experienced driver.
      Both could be equally wrong.

      I assume we are not arguing the killer was sober and in complete control of his faculties?
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Not at all, Jon. ANYONE could judge whether the builder of that shed knew roughly how to hang a door so that it didn't implode - I mean, even I can tell that, and I'm no builder.

        Ditto with Kelly. It doesn't take a forensics expert to look at that carnage, or read the objective medical reports (as opposed to subjective medical opinions and/or distorted reportage of same), to conclude that very little surgical experience was required, or evidenced, at Miller's Court.
        Hi Sam
        let me start off by saying that on the question of medical/surgical skill, I lean toward the ripper having some, and in terms of at least anatomical knowledge that he probably did., though Im not married to it. Hunter, yourself, Ben and others have made strong arguments against and of course some contemperanious drs also didn't think so either-though in varying degrees.

        However, most modern experts do believe the ripper must have had some skill in these areas-I think because being so removed and with a hundred years of serial killer history-todays experts are not only more objective but more knowledgable.

        Which brings me to the main point which I think you(and others-including the contemperanious drs) might be missing.

        We have to remember we are dealing with a serial killer first and foremost.
        Not a doctor or a surgeon. If mutilation of the female body was one of his sigs (along with organ removal) and I think that its obvious it was-then that could be misleading people into just looking at the overall end product and thinking it was just wanton savagery-smash and grab-with no medical skill whatsoever.

        The medical/surgical experience is obscured by another sig (motivation)of the serial killer-further mutilations

        I think people might have the misconception that if the killer had medical experience that the corpses would have a more "cleaner" or neat appearance.
        I could see (some of)the doctors at the time, knowing what their corpses looked like after similar procedures and looking at the bloody mess left behind by the ripper, might conclude he obviously had no medical experience. Then of course there could be the (unconscious?) reason that they wanted to distance themselves and their profession from this savage beast.
        Last edited by Abby Normal; 12-22-2015, 01:49 PM.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
          On balance, I would say it is far easier for a medical man to randomly slice away to his hearts content, than for a layperson to correctly & surgically remove an organ.

          Why should a medical man, clearly unbalanced, perhaps even to some degree drunk at the time, even act like he is sober and in the operating theatre, when he is mutilating a victim?

          I don't see the need to type-cast the killer.

          It's like saying that drunk driver swerving down the road couldn't possibly be a policeman, they would know better, and yet...

          "A Durham police officer has been charged with impaired driving and failure to report after fleeing the scene of an accident in Bowmanville on Saturday."

          The fact Bond deduced the slashing betrayed no sign of experience, does not mean that swerving car showed no signs of an experienced driver.
          Both could be equally wrong.

          I assume we are not arguing the killer was sober and in complete control of his faculties?
          kind of what I was trying to say. he could have been under the influence of alcohol also, as you say, as many serisl killers are when they attack. And also, extreme anger also comes into play-another motivation for serial killers-which also could have something to do with the apparent ferocity of the attack and sloppiness of the wounds.

          like I said we are dealing with a serial killer here first and foremost-not a surgeon conducting an operation in a laboratory.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • [URL="phinnweb.blogspot.co.uk/2004/10/right-man-and-fear-of-losing-face.html"]

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              kind of what I was trying to say. he could have been under the influence of alcohol also, as you say, as many serisl killers are when they attack. And also, extreme anger also comes into play-another motivation for serial killers-which also could have something to do with the apparent ferocity of the attack and sloppiness of the wounds.

              like I said we are dealing with a serial killer here first and foremost-not a surgeon conducting an operation in a laboratory.
              You make some very good points Abby. What strikes me as very odd is that Kelly appears to have been eviscerated with considerably less skill than, say, Chapman and Eddowes. But, assuming they were murdered by the same killer, you would surely expect the opposite: because the killer was under far less time pressure than in the earlier murders, and probably had far better lighting conditions with which to operate than at the Eddowes murder scene, I.e. on account of the light provided by the fire.

              One possibility is that Kelly was killed by someone else, but I don't consider that very likely. A more likely possibility, therefore, is your suggestion that he was either intoxicated or something made him extremely angry, resulting in a loss of self control and a frenzied attack. Of course, another possibility is declining mental state, i.e. if the killer was suffering from some kind of mental illness.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                What person with more than basic anatomical knowledge would create a narrow, practically rectangular, tongue of skin to avoid the navel, when with significantly less effort he could "slightly curve" around it, as per the description of the Virchow technique?
                Why avoid it at all?
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  I think people might have the misconception that if the killer had medical experience that the corpses would have a more "cleaner" or neat appearance.
                  I could see (some of)the doctors at the time, knowing what their corpses looked like after similar procedures and looking at the bloody mess left behind by the ripper, might conclude he obviously had no medical experience. Then of course there could be the (unconscious?) reason that they wanted to distance themselves and their profession from this savage beast.
                  Right Abby, that seems to be what we are dealing with here.
                  How could slicing large sections of flesh off a corpse be made to look surgical?
                  There is no specific target, no limits - internal or external, no correct or incorrect methodology. It's just carving meat, (as crude as it sounds).
                  Even the placement of the organs appears intentional, not thrown around the room, etc.
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by John G View Post
                    Interestingly, Dr Biggs asks whether Eddowes' kidney and uterus were surgically removed or simply hacked out by an unskilled person. On the other hand, Ian Calder comments that Annie Chapman's pelvic organs "appear to have been removed skilfully without damage to adjacent tissue." ( Marriott, 2015)
                    Without damage to surrounding tissue? Organs removed skilfully? Two thirds of the bladder being removed with the uterus, and the top section of the vagina. A portion of the stomach lying by the right shoulder.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                      Without damage to surrounding tissue? Organs removed skilfully? Two thirds of the bladder being removed with the uterus, and the top section of the vagina. A portion of the stomach lying by the right shoulder.
                      To be honest I'm wondering whether the medical reports are sufficiently detailed to allow for any firm conclusions. As Dr Biggs points out, "much of the description is vague and potentially ambiguous" (Marriott, 2015). Even Dr Calder's opinion indicates a degree of uncertainty, with phrases such as "appear to have been removed skilfully." (My emphasis).
                      Last edited by John G; 12-22-2015, 03:52 PM.

                      Comment


                      • The sections of the reports I refererd are fairly explicit though don't you think John? Two thirds of the bladder removed, portion of stomach by the right shoulder.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Observer View Post
                          The sections of the reports I refererd are fairly explicit though don't you think John? Two thirds of the bladder removed, portion of stomach by the right shoulder.
                          Yes, I agree. There are clear indications that the perpetrator lacked medical expertise. For instance, in addition to your examples, the jagged wound inflicted on Eddowes doesn't resemble a surgical incision. And why did he remove a portion of Chapman's small intestines? I mean, even a butcher who was consulted by Trevor Marriott stated that he was aware that you don't need to remove the intestines in order to access the uterus.

                          Nonetheless, medical experts at the time were clearly very impressed by the apparent level of skill that was demonstrated. Thus, commenting on Chapman's murder, the Lancet observed, "obviously the work was that of an expert-of one, at least, who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvic organs with one sweep of the knife." Interestingly, Paul Harrison, who assisted Dr Calder, commented, "To remove the appendages, the uterus, the fallopian tubes and ovaries in one frenzied attack and one slice of the blade would be almost impossible." (Marriott, 2013)

                          And Dr Calder commented on how the"pelvic organs appear to have been removed skilfully without damage to adjacent tissue." (Marriott, 2013) And, of course, the perpetrator would have been operating under very poor lighting conditions and under severe time pressure, presumably risking discovery at any moment.

                          How then was this Herculean task achieved? Are we dealing with one of the world's greatest medical experts? Well, importantly, Dr Calder concludes that the killer could not have skilfully removed Eddowes uterus and kidney at the crime scene within the time frame available to him. This, of course, accords with Trevor's argument that the organs were removed elsewhere.

                          However, I'm not personally comfortable with that explanation. I would therefore ask whether the post mortem examination was sufficiently rigorous. I would also refer to Dr Biggs' comments about the lack of detail in the text, "which does not allow for inferences to be drawn with confidence." (Marriott, 2015). In other words, can it be reasonably inferred that the organs were "skilfully" removed without damage to adjacent tissue?
                          Last edited by John G; 12-23-2015, 06:20 AM.

                          Comment


                          • The time constraints observed by Dr. Calder do not apply if we dispense with Lawende's sighting, that the couple he saw were not Eddowes with her killer.
                            The murder could already have been under way while Lawende & Co. were leaving the club.
                            Trevor's theory is not the only solution to this perceived problem.
                            Last edited by Wickerman; 12-23-2015, 06:32 AM.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              The time constraints observed by Dr. Calder do not apply if we dispense with Lawende's sighting, that the couple he saw were not Eddowes with her killer.
                              The murder could already have been under way while Lawende & Co. were leaving the club.
                              Trevor's theory is not the only solution to this perceived problem.
                              Yes, I'm not totally convinced about Lawende's evidence myself, particularly as he seemed to witness a great deal more than his companions. In other words, he may have exaggerated his evidence. Of course, he only saw the back of the woman and was able to identify her only by her clothing. Even in this respect, he only said that he believed the woman's clothing matched that of the deceased, which is hardly unequivocal, especially when you consider the poor lighting conditions, "I have seen the articles at the police station, and believe them to be those the deceased was wearing."

                              I am also far from convinced that the killer was any kind of medical expert, especially considering the degree of ambiguity in the reports.
                              Last edited by John G; 12-23-2015, 07:22 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by John G View Post

                                I am also far from convinced that the killer was any kind of medical expert, especially considering the degree of ambiguity in the reports.
                                I don't think it is necessary to suggest a 'medical expert', the doctors (Brown, Phillips, Sequira, and if I'm not mistaken, Prosector too), have suggested nothing more than someone with medical knowledge. Which is considerably lower down the professional ladder than a medical expert.

                                Perhaps this distinction becomes lost from time to time.
                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X