The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Batman]

The way Jews is spelled incorrectly and the double cockney do tell us something though. If JtR wrote it, he was likely not a Jew. So that means Jewish suspects are off the hook for it. I don't believe in double jeopardy, that he was Jew, hoping to put the police off his tracks.

Then we have the anti-Semitic content. We have multiple synagogues close to several of the murders. We have Jewish witnesses, one of whom appears to disturb JtR. I am pretty sure some of these days, maybe Stride/Eddowes, was a Jewish holy day or something like that.

It also tells us that if JtR had a bolt hole, he went to Goulston St., on a deliberate mission to dump it there.

Why?

I think the answer is very simple. I think the investigators at the time concluded it was done to 'cast suspicion on the Jews'. There we have it. Following Chapman and the anti-Semitic riots it is plainly obvious that JtR wants more of that because it helped him get away with it.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry
Im starting to think you might be the most minimalistic person on this board! Nothing is related, everything is all just a bunch of endless coincidences. everything is random and meaningless. lalalala. ; )

I've learnt to be as parsimonious as possible when it comes to this case. I think that's what you meant to say.

Sure it can.
It tells us possibly that the killer was a gentile and not a jew.
And at the very least you could compare handwriting.

You said it yourself, 'possibly'. Nothing's for definite where the graffito's concerned. We don't know that he even wrote it, and because of the double-meaning we can't infer beyond doubt if they were Jew or Gentile (although I would probably go with the latter). That's why it's essentially a non-clue.

If its so worthless, why did it cause so much controversy when it was erased and "settle the hash" of Warren?

The graffiti should've been photographed as standard procedure because there was at least a possibility it was linked to the murder. The police barely had any physical leads to work from as it was. It doesn't mean the graffiti itself was a clue. As an artefact of the case, though, it would've been nice to see it in its original form.

Nothing to do with the murder? eventhough the killer knew he was interrupted and/or spotted by no less than five jews? One who pissed him off so much he called him another anti-semetic slur-"Lipski!"?

Did the murderer know he had been spotted by Jews? Why does he care about this after his bloodlust has been sated?

A connection to Schwartz implies that the murderer was 'Broud Shoulders', however, the evidence tends to contradict this, i.e. Stride clenching the cachous.

I would expect graffiti left by a serial killer would reference his victim(s), himself, or his motives. Instead we appear to get some fairly unremarkable racism about blameless Jews, something that could've been left by anyone in the neighbourhood who had a beef with the local immigrants.

Again its moot what we today THINK he should have written. It was clear to him and apparently clear enough to the police at the time.

Disagree with that last part. They couldn't even decide on the syntax and spelling of the graffiti. Supt Arnold took one interpretation of the graffiti and decided it was precautionary to erase the message to avoid a riot, of which Warren agreed. They didn't KNOW it was an attack on Jews.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=Batman;337780]The way Jews is spelled incorrectly and the double cockney do tell us something though. If JtR wrote it, he was likely not a Jew. So that means Jewish suspects are off the hook for it. I don't believe in double jeopardy, that he was Jew, hoping to put the police off his tracks.

How do you go from "if" and "likely" to Jewish suspects being off the hook? That is a huge leap.

Then we have the anti-Semitic content. We have multiple synagogues close to several of the murders. We have Jewish witnesses, one of whom appears to disturb JtR. I am pretty sure some of these days, maybe Stride/Eddowes, was a Jewish holy day or something like that.

Again this is huge leap and certainly not warranted. The next murder was Kelly which is an Irish name and McCarthy owned her apartment and McCarthy is an Irish name. Is that evidence for an Irish connection?

It also tells us that if JtR had a bolt hole, he went to Goulston St., on a deliberate mission to dump it there.

Unless he threw it away while on the run.

Why?

I think the answer is very simple. I think the investigators at the time concluded it was done to 'cast suspicion on the Jews'. There we have it. Following Chapman and the anti-Semitic riots it is plainly obvious that JtR wants more of that because it helped him get away with it.[/Q

Sorry but it is not plainly obvious.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Because we have a limited understanding and cannot see the significance of something does not make it worthless. The GSG is possible the only communication JTR ever had. I find it hard to believe you cannot see the value in having that.

Hello Dane,

Can you tell us what the GSG means?

c.d.

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane,

Can you tell us what the GSG means?

c.d.

I'm not sure how my previous comment gave you the impression that I felt I could interpret it. Instead of me trying to give what my limited understanding of it is, I default to what the police at the time felt it meant. I suggest we all do the same.

[Batman]

I pretty much think that discounting the graffiti is a modern phenomena. As pointed out the only take from someone who was there, that discounts it, is from a 1930s memoir. In the police files Swanson clarifies its purpose as to cast suspicion on the Jews, something the old Jewry agreed with especially in light of the residence not knowing anything about the graffiti when asked.

At the inquest the graffiti was discussed and what it said relayed to the court. It became public knowledge that the Jews where being implicated in the crime -- but by the criminal himself. So while there was every reason for JtR to try to create an anti-semitic backlash like the one that swept through Whitechapel after the murder of Chapman, this didn't work. It was rubbed out. There was no rioting. Goulston St., wasn't burned down. He failed.

So why continue to push the issue with Mary Jane Kelly?

Now someone suggested that any anti-Semitic correlation can be done away with because of Mary Kelly and the seemingly missing Jewish connection... but is it truly missing? On the closer inspection of the case this becomes the most Jewish correlated event due to the post-inquest witnesses that popped up. Make of that what you will.

If JtR is the one screaming Lipski at Jews and writing anti-Semitic graffiti in the most important street of Jewish day to day life in Whitechapel, one can hardly try to square a Jewish suspect up to that. Hence why Jewish suspects tend to produce bias of dropping Stride and the graffiti. Something I agreed with since Fido's work on Kozminski but have since dropped as it just feels too much like fitting a suspect to the crime by omitting evidence.

[lynn cates]

reasoning

Hello CD. Excellent work. Glad some genuine logical reasoning is being brought to this thread.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Dane,

Can you tell us what the GSG means?

c.d.

Hi CD

"The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing"

It means that the Jews were blamed for the recent murders, and the author of the GSG is saying the Jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing. ie. here`s something to blame us.

The reference to "blame" refers to the gangs of local men who were running around the streets of Spitalfields on the afternoon and evening of the day of the Chapman murder punching Jews and chanting "blame the Jews".

Supt Arnold had to put extra police on the streets to deal with the rioting on 8th Sept, which is why he wanted the chalk message erasing immediately.

[Abby Normal]

I pretty much think that discounting the graffiti is a modern phenomena. As pointed out the only take from someone who was there, that discounts it, is from a 1930s memoir. In the police files Swanson clarifies its purpose as to cast suspicion on the Jews, something the old Jewry agreed with especially in light of the residence not knowing anything about the graffiti when asked.

At the inquest the graffiti was discussed and what it said relayed to the court. It became public knowledge that the Jews where being implicated in the crime -- but by the criminal himself. So while there was every reason for JtR to try to create an anti-semitic backlash like the one that swept through Whitechapel after the murder of Chapman, this didn't work. It was rubbed out. There was no rioting. Goulston St., wasn't burned down. He failed.

So why continue to push the issue with Mary Jane Kelly?

Now someone suggested that any anti-Semitic correlation can be done away with because of Mary Kelly and the seemingly missing Jewish connection... but is it truly missing? On the closer inspection of the case this becomes the most Jewish correlated event due to the post-inquest witnesses that popped up. Make of that what you will.

If JtR is the one screaming Lipski at Jews and writing anti-Semitic graffiti in the most important street of Jewish day to day life in Whitechapel, one can hardly try to square a Jewish suspect up to that. Hence why Jewish suspects tend to produce bias of dropping Stride and the graffiti. Something I agreed with since Fido's work on Kozminski but have since dropped as it just feels too much like fitting a suspect to the crime by omitting evidence.

Hi batman
Exactly.

I mean we have a suspect described at both murder scenes as wearing a peaked cap, who is interrupted while attacking the first victim by a jew with a "heavy jewish appearance" , who calls the man a jewish slur "lipski!", who then may have been almost caught red handed by another jew with same victim before he could finish.

Then hes seen by three jews with the second victim and her bloody apron is subsequently found directly under anti semetic graffiti.

And Most of the police think the graffiti's purpose is to cast suspicion on the jews.


the pieces of the puzzle are there, and its not even a particularly difficult one.

[Batman]

Hi batman
Exactly.

I mean we have a suspect described at both murder scenes as wearing a peaked cap, who is interrupted while attacking the first victim by a jew with a "heavy jewish appearance" , who calls the man a jewish slur "lipski!", who then may have been almost caught red handed by another jew with same victim before he could finish.

Then hes seen by three jews with the second victim and her bloody apron is subsequently found directly under anti semetic graffiti.

And Most of the police think the graffiti's purpose is to cast suspicion on the jews.


the pieces of the puzzle are there, and its not even a particularly difficult one.

The alternative is something called a 'coincidence' and usually in the plural (coincidences) because it requires a stack of them to work around these points if one desires to reject them.

I agree. This shouldn't be a complex issue because it wasn't for the investigators either who decided to get rid of it and fast. Maybe too fast because they didn't take a picture.

I mean the alternative requires coincidences + incompetence on behalf of the MET. Are we to second guess them on this? or accept them? I say they have given good reasons to accept them. For example to second guess them would be to say 'but there was loads of graffiti in Whitechapel'. Wouldn't they be in a better position to know that than us?

[John G]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but it might be possible that he had a bolt hole on Goulston Street, or nearby, and that's why he headed in that direction from Mitre Square. Possibly leaving the graffiti was a last minute decision before he went to properly clean up.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but it might be possible that he had a bolt hole on Goulston Street, or nearby, and that's why he headed in that direction from Mitre Square. Possibly leaving the graffiti was a last minute decision before he went to properly clean up.

there was about an hour time gap from the eddowes murder and the discovery of the GSG. Its only a few minutes walk from mitre square to goulston st, so I doubt it.

My feeling is he went to his bolt hole first to get cleaned up, drop off knife and organs, grab a piece of chalk befor heading out to deposit the apron and write the GSG. It would explain the time difference.

[Abby Normal]

The alternative is something called a 'coincidence' and usually in the plural (coincidences) because it requires a stack of them to work around these points if one desires to reject them.

I agree. This shouldn't be a complex issue because it wasn't for the investigators either who decided to get rid of it and fast. Maybe too fast because they didn't take a picture.

I mean the alternative requires coincidences + incompetence on behalf of the MET. Are we to second guess them on this? or accept them? I say they have given good reasons to accept them. For example to second guess them would be to say 'but there was loads of graffiti in Whitechapel'. Wouldn't they be in a better position to know that than us?

agree-too many coincidences for me. and agree-I have never bought the lots of graffiti argument.
First of all the police never mention any other graffit in the immediate area, which Im sure they would if there had been, as it would diminish the GSG importance.
Secondly, the graffiti just happens to be directly above the bloody apron.

[Harry D]

Hi batman
Exactly.

I mean we have a suspect described at both murder scenes as wearing a peaked cap, who is interrupted while attacking the first victim by a jew with a "heavy jewish appearance" , who calls the man a jewish slur "lipski!", who then may have been almost caught red handed by another jew with same victim before he could finish.

Then hes seen by three jews with the second victim and her bloody apron is subsequently found directly under anti semetic graffiti.

And Most of the police think the graffiti's purpose is to cast suspicion on the jews.


the pieces of the puzzle are there, and its not even a particularly difficult one.

Hello, Abby.

But you would have me believe that the Ripper was a calculated, organized killer, yet here he is accosting a woman in plain sight outside a busy social club.

[Abby Normal]

Hello, Abby.

But you would have me believe that the Ripper was a calculated, organized killer, yet here he is accosting a woman in plain sight outside a busy social club.

Hi HarryD
anyone can lose their temper.

My take is that after spending considerable time and money on Stride, and she still refusing to accompany him to a secluded spot he simply lost his temper and attacked her.