An emerging pattern?

[Tom_Wescott]

A lot of people like to think of Martha as the FIRST victim...but what if she was the LAST?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[SarahLee]

For me the other victims are a pattern, its trying to fit Martha into this that is the puzzle.

And that's the question really isn't it? Is she a part of this or totally unrelated?

I don't think I fully grasped what you were suggested last night, but working this through, we would have Martha falling asleep on the landing after the soldier friend left - an occurence that was common enough in itself that it was unremarkable and didn't make an impression on Elizabeth Mahoney.

I suppose it would have to depend on how big and how dark the landing was. Tucked into a dark out of the way corner would be a possibility, but in the open where passersby would have to step around her I can't imagine anyone not noticing. Something that I'll add that to my list of things to look into. Although I still have some doubts, as I'd suggest that a lone woman ascending a dark staircase in a rough area would have been hyper vigilant of her surroundings and who might have been hidden in the shadows.

Then we have our killer either stumbling across her accidentally or being caught out having watched Martha and her soldier - and as events transpired, this led to him killing her and acquiring a taste for knife murders. Taking these one at a time :

Accidentally stumbling across a sleeping Martha would have to mean that the killer either lived in that building or had business there at that time of night. I'm not sure that I can see an enraged passerby jumping straight in with a knife on a sleeping woman. More likely to take out his anger with a kick as he was passing, particularly if she was in his way (an effusion of blood between the skull and scalp perhaps?) . . . and then maybe jumping in with a knife if she didn't move or react in the way he anticipated. Hmmm - maybe worth thinking this one through further.

Voyeur turned killer is an interesting proposition if we're looking at an evolving MO. In this instance I don't think it works though. If Martha had spotted him lurking and / or watching I'm fairly sure that there would have been some noise. "Oi You Perv!!!" followed by a struggle???

Pearly Poll is an interesting one and I've been doing some more searching on her tonight. Definitely some very suspicious behaviour in the wake of the killing - was she outright lying or just withholding some elements of the truth? I haven't quite formed opinions on this yet, but I'm giving it some thought.

[SarahLee]

A lot of people like to think of Martha as the FIRST victim...but what if she was the LAST?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hmmmm the last of an earlier series, rather than the start of a new one?
I have to confess to not having looked back into any earlier victims in any great detail after a cursory read convinced me that they were unconnected to any of the accepted Ripper victims.

A connection between Tabram and Smith (reading between the lines) is an interesting proposition though and one that I hadn't even started to consider. Initial instinct without having looked into it would be that Tabram's killing is missing the sexual element of the attack on Smith and doesn't seem to show the same degree of humiliation and sadism . . . but initial instincts without any research really don't count for much. I need to put a lot more thought into this, but it's opened up a while new route to start considering.

[Wolf]

Hi all,

There are a lot of people who strongly enforce the idea that JtR was not from the Whitechapel area but someone who travelled to London / Whitechapel regularly... I don't know where any of you stand on this idea.

However, if you are going to invest in this sleeping scenario, would someone visiting Whitechapel decide to kill a sleeping woman in a hallway - how would he come across her? - Unless he was renting a room, a client (the soldier(s)) or following her?

Plus, in regards to Martha being the first of the JtR victims I would say perhaps Martha was the beginning / birth of the other murders. To hit her head against a wall that hard suggests to me that something must have happened which made the murderer (JtR or not) fly into a rage - hitting someone's head against a wall is a type of behaviour that is spontaneous in a burst of anger, whereas the other accepted victims are strangled, stabbed and mutilated - much cooler / calmer / planned / diconnected and unattached. Therefore Martha could have been the birth of the murders by something going wrong between Martha and the killer (e.g. laughing at him in what he could have considered an already humiliating situation - paying for sex) causing JtR to form such a hatred for prostitues that he felt he had to go and kill more (a calm and calculated decision which would reflect in the other murders, which in my opinion, comparing Martha Tabram to the accepted victims it does reflect - Martha is messy and impulsive, the other victims are cleaner and have an essence of planning to them with the mutilations).

In regard to the mutilations, JtR targets / mutilates / takes everything that makes a woman a woman. Seems to me like he could've thought to de-feminise / de-woman the victims (Martha Tabram included). Suggests to me that he's obviously fixated on some disliking of women for whatever reason - whether that was Martha Tabram's doing or not.

Kind regards

[lynn cates]

well put

Hello Tom.

"A lot of people like to think of Martha as the FIRST victim...but what if she was the LAST?"

Ah! Well put.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

accident or design

Hello Wolf. Welcome to the boards.

Regarding your theory, do you see the stabs to Martha's pubic region as part of his rage or part of something calculated?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wolf. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about Tabram's head being hit against a wall. She had a hit to the head, true, but just as likely, and perhaps more likely, she was hit over the head with something.

Regarding your question, I'm not aware of anyone who is married to the idea that Tabram was sleeping when attacked. It's just a possibility suggested to us by Alfred Crow, who remarked that her murder spot was a normal spot to see people sleeping in. I personally doubt she was attacked while sleeping, but I've seen no evidence to discount the possibility. If she WERE attacked while sleeping, I'd bet dollar to donuts that he killer lived in that building.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Wolf. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about Tabram's head being hit against a wall. She had a hit to the head, true, but just as likely, and perhaps more likely, she was hit over the head with something.

Regarding your question, I'm not aware of anyone who is married to the idea that Tabram was sleeping when attacked. It's just a possibility suggested to us by Alfred Crow, who remarked that her murder spot was a normal spot to see people sleeping in. I personally doubt she was attacked while sleeping, but I've seen no evidence to discount the possibility. If she WERE attacked while sleeping, I'd bet dollar to donuts that he killer lived in that building.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom and Wolf

I don't believe Tabram was asleep when attacked either. She was soliciting that night so she likely took the killer or killers up to the landing for the transaction and then was attacked.

Wolf, in regard to the idea that the killer was not from the area but had travelled to the neighborhood to commit the crimes, that's a scenario that is as old as the case. It fits the Jekyll and Hyde idea of a well-to-do respectable man coming to the East End to commit the murders. But the fact is that most of the better regarded witness sightings indicate that the killer was more likely a working class man, which would point to a local or a sailor. I am thinking especially of Lawende's description of the man seen with Eddowes shortly before her death.

Best regards

Chris

[curious]

Hi Jimi,

I did wonder (on another thread) if JtR had attacked his victims while they were sleeping. Eddowes would be difficult though as, if she wanted a kip, she could just have stayed in her cell at Bishopsgate. Chapman, Kelly and possibly Nichols could have been thus taken unawares though.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi, Bridewell,
Interesting that Eddowes sticks for you, while it is Chapman for me.

I can see Chapman going to a house she knew in order to sleep in the hallway. I can not get her lying down to sleep outside. On a chilly night, sleeping outside instead of inside makes no sense to me. I can almost see her going to the outhouse and being attacked on her way back in.

For me Eddowes, still inebriated, deciding to curl up somewhere dark and out of the way is more believable.

I love how people's minds see things so differently. . . .

curious

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris. Of course, it's well known that any 'toffs' who went slumming in Whitechapel would dress the part. Only the stupid ones dressed in their nines and begged to be robbed. And travelling into the East End would not necessarily make someone 'well to do', just not broke and homeless.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris. Of course, it's well known that any 'toffs' who went slumming in Whitechapel would dress the part. Only the stupid ones dressed in their nines and begged to be robbed. And travelling into the East End would not necessarily make someone 'well to do', just not broke and homeless.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Yes true but Lawende described a man who had a sailor-like appearance. He probably would have noticed if the man looked well to do and had dressed down. The scene apparently looked to be a typical East End scene of a prostitute talking to a client of similar class not that of a East End prostitute talking to a man with some means. Also don't forget Levy's remark about the couple: "I don't like going home alone when I see these sorts of characters about."

All the best

Chris

[Wolf]

Hello Wolf. Welcome to the boards.

Regarding your theory, do you see the stabs to Martha's pubic region as part of his rage or part of something calculated?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I would consider the stabs to Martha's pubic region as calculated. He's satisfying sending a message. As I said in my previous post, JtR seemed to focus a lot of his attack on the areas which make a woman a woman - Martha Tabram included.
It sounds contradictory that he could have reached a state of rage with Martha and then made a calculated decision to mutilate her down there, I know, but I believe that if this was JtR that it was here where he/she found satisfaction in de-womanising the victims as this is one trait that is consistent from Martha Tabram to Mary Kelly - therefore I think this could have been where JtR was finding his way of doing things / sending a message - his MO or pattern for lack of a better word.
From Martha and through all the accepted 5 victims I would say there is a progression, all of which have certain things in common (such as something causing the women to pass out whether that be strangled, hit over the head or smothered etc, the stabs and mutilation downstairs).

Hi Tom
"Hi Wolf. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about Tabram's head being hit against a wall. She had a hit to the head, true, but just as likely, and perhaps more likely, she was hit over the head with something.

Regarding your question, I'm not aware of anyone who is married to the idea that Tabram was sleeping when attacked. It's just a possibility suggested to us by Alfred Crow, who remarked that her murder spot was a normal spot to see people sleeping in. I personally doubt she was attacked while sleeping, but I've seen no evidence to discount the possibility. If she WERE attacked while sleeping, I'd bet dollar to donuts that he killer lived in that building. "

I am certainly not sold on the idea that Martha was sleeping. Killing someone who is asleep is a bit cautious - JtR oozed confidence in his killings and confidence where it came to time and place - he could kill quickly and cleanly with awake and concious victims so he didn't need to (and I doubt wanted to) kill a sleeping woman - its too easy. Admittedly, if Martha was his first then he might've wanted someone easy where it wouldn't be too difficult with as little slip ups as possible and that could be why Martha was chosen in her drunken stupor, however, if you don't count Martha, JtR jumped in both feet first where it came to Polly - therefore JtR doesn't seem to be someone who wanted something too easy because he already knew he was capable which is why I can't see JtR killing a sleeping Martha in a passageway.

Kindest regards.

[lynn cates]

strange

Hello Wolf. Thanks.

"It sounds contradictory that he could have reached a state of rage with Martha and then made a calculated decision to mutilate her down there, I know"

Well, does seem that way. But I suppose stranger things have happened.

Cheers.
LC

[Wolf]

Hi Lynn,

It certainly does seem strange and contradictory, however in a state of rage the stabbings to her pubic region could've been impulsive - he'd be angry. I'm sure some people can relate to getting so angry they end up doing random things which may make no sense to anyone but themselves.

I would see the stabbings to her pubic region as impulsive yet calculated - impulsive and angry to attack / lash out at what could have caused him to kill her (her line of business getting paid for sex and the humiliation of it all and what could have happened that night e.g. Martha laughing at him) but calculated because he wants to de-womanise her and punish what she represents.

[lynn cates]

reconciliation

Hello Wolf. Thanks.

"impulsive yet calculated"

I see. And that's very difficult to reconcile. Of course, you're aware of that as your subsequent remarks show.

Good luck!

Cheers.
LC