A6 Rebooted

[OneRound]

I think that the reference to .32 calibre bullets comes only in Keith Simpson's 1978 autobiography, 40 Years of Murder which I believe was first published in 1978 when the learned professor would be in his seventies. A number of explanations are possible. First, the bullets that killed Gregsten were in fact .32 calibre and no one spotted that the gun found on the bus and the spent cartridges at the Vienna were the larger .38 calibre. Second, that Keith Simpson wrote from memory and got it wrong in 1978. Third, there was a typo at the printers and the proof readers did not spot it.

The above three examples are not exhaustive.

Spot on, Spitfire.

Sorry to mention Derek Bentley again but Maxwell Fyfe, the Home Secretary who refused to reprieve the mentally retarded teenager, made a number of mistakes in recounting details of the case in his autobiography.

I have always considered that rather insulting and disrespectful towards the Bentley family. Most of all though it probably shows that those on the inside are not always as interested years later as some of us on the outside.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Graham]

I'm not surprised Prof Simpson made such a simple error - according to the autobiography of his secretary Miss Lefebrer, he did an average of 9 autopsies a day in his 40-odd year career. I don't think anyone could be expected to remember every detail of every case........

Graham

[cobalt]

It is not a simple error. It is a massive error.

For you and me, or any other layman who has probably never handled a firearm, that I agree would be a simple error. But Simpson was a highly experienced pathologist. In his heyday, his word could mean life or death. He was a national figure in high profile murder cases, and would have had a pack of young hounds after his job had he slipped up.

OK he was not a ballistic expert, but he was hardly a novice in these matters. If there was typing error in the 1978 memoirs then this could have been acknowledged as an erratum.

[moste]

I'm not surprised Prof Simpson made such a simple error - according to the autobiography of his secretary Miss Lefebrer, he did an average of 9 autopsies a day in his 40-odd year career. I don't think anyone could be expected to remember every detail of every case........

Graham

That's true, that's why a stenographer, records every finding of the pathologists post mortem.

[moste]

Prof Keith Simpson was, first and foremost, a forensic pathologist and not an expert in ballistics. His principle task was to assess the wounds inflicted upon Valerie Storie. The bullets removed from her body would have been distorted, and if any detailed examination of them took place then this would have been done by ballistic experts at Scotland Yard, not by Prof Simpson or any other medic. Prof Simpson made a simple error, that is the long and short of it. I cannot recall any responsible, published author taking issue with this in an attempt to exonerate James Hanratty - and that includes Bob Woffinden.

I spent a large part of my career as a development and analytical chemist, and I can assure you that mistakes can be made at any level of scientific investigation and reporting. However, next time I need some fuse-wire checking, I'll apply to you.

Graham

The last sentence was unnecessary, I have noticed that If you feel someone is making a point that is at odds to your way of thinking, you use ridicule as a tool.

[Spitfire]

It is not a simple error. It is a massive error.

I think it is most likely a typographical error in the publication of Simpson's memoirs some 16 years after Hanratty's trial and one that had no bearing of result of the trial or the fate of Hanratty.

If Simpson had misidentified .38 bullets as .32 bullets, then in the context of the investigation it would be a massive error, as the evidential link to Hanratty, or more specifically Hanratty's room at the Vienna, would be broken. But I'm sure he didn't make that error.

[Sherlock Houses]

It is not a simple error. It is a massive error.

For you and me, or any other layman who has probably never handled a firearm, that I agree would be a simple error. But Simpson was a highly experienced pathologist. In his heyday, his word could mean life or death. He was a national figure in high profile murder cases, and would have had a pack of young hounds after his job had he slipped up.

Not a simple error at all, as you say Cobalt, especially for such a renowned pathologist as Keith Simpson.
Couldn't he be bothered at all to proof read his own autobiography ??
A very very careless typo error on his part, unless he was trying to tell us something 17 years after the event.
A bit strange that his description of Gregsten's and Storie's wounds are suggestive of being caused by an automatic rather than a revolver.

Woffinden was puzzled too.

[Spitfire]

Not a simple error at all, as you say Cobalt, especially for such a renowned pathologist as Keith Simpson.
Couldn't he be bothered at all to proof read his own autobiography ??
A very very careless typo error on his part, unless he was trying to tell us something 17 years after the event.
A bit strange that his description of Gregsten's and Storie's wounds are suggestive of being caused by an automatic rather than a revolver.

Woffinden was puzzled too.

You're on to something here.

All this time we have assumed that the murdered man was one Michael Gregsten but Prof Keith Simpson has performed an autopsy on someone called GREGSTON.

GREGSTEN was shot with .38 calibre bullets, GREGSTON was shot with .32 calibre bullets. So there must have been two gunshot victims with similar names, or the proof reading has gone to pot again.

I am inclined to the view previously expressed that .32 was a typo and should have read .38, in the same way GREGSTON should have read GREGSTEN.

[OneRound]

Not a simple error at all, as you say Cobalt, especially for such a renowned pathologist as Keith Simpson.
Couldn't he be bothered at all to proof read his own autobiography ??
A very very careless typo error on his part, unless he was trying to tell us something 17 years after the event.
A bit strange that his description of Gregsten's and Storie's wounds are suggestive of being caused by an automatic rather than a revolver.

Woffinden was puzzled too.

Hi Sherlock,

Each to their own opinion but I do feel you and some others are making far too much of this.

In his book, Woffinden appeared confused over the full name of the legally determined guilty man and gave our Jim, namely James Hanratty, the full name of his father, James Francis Hanratty

I have always regarded that as a simple mistake. They do happen.

I await any opposite views. Possibly like Simpson, perhaps some consider Woffinden was trying to tell us something. Maybe some feel Woffinden harboured suspicions as to the dad's involvement in the crime. Or maybe that father and son swapped places in the death cell and the latter is still out there today.

In my opinion, just as likely as Simpson passing on obscure clues in his autobiography the best part of two decades after the event concerning the murder of Gregsten or, as Spitfire observantly points out, Gregston.

Regards,
OneRound

[Graham]

I've just had a quick skim through Foot's book, and note that he doesn't mention anything about the calibre of the bullets - in fact he doesn't even mention Prof Keith Simpson. As Foot's book was published in 1971 (my copy is a first edition} he wouldn't have been aware of Simpson's memoirs published in I believe 1978. (Woffinden did have access to Simpson's memoirs). All Foot says is that Mr Andrew Pollen of Bedford General Hospital examined Miss Storie and noted that two bullets remained inside her body - these were later removed at Guy's Hospital and again no mention made of their calibre. I can't find a mention of Gregsten's post-mortem in Foot, but as I say I only had a skim through it. However, Foot does relate that the gun found on the bus was passed to Mr Lewis Nickolls, director of the Metropolitan Police Laboratory at Scotland Yard. In the Forensic Lab at Scotland Yard Mr Nickolls and colleagues examined the gun, a .38, and confirmed that this was the gun which had killed Gregsten, referring to two .38 cartridge cases found in the car as confirmation that it was indeed .38 calibre.

I would strongly suggest that had the bullets which killed Gregsten been described as .32 calibre in any official report or notes of the investigative proceedings, this would have been quickly spotted as a mistake and corrected. I therefore feel that we can take it as read that Prof Simpson's describing in his memoirs that the bullets were .32 calibre is a mistake and nothing more.

On this subject, it ought to be noted that throughout his book Paul Foot refers to Det Sup Basil Acott as Robert Acott. No-one on these threads seems to have picked that up before. So was Det Sup Acott really called Robert, or did Foot make a mistake which was not spotted by the proof-reader? Easy error to make, as Acott was usually referred to as 'Bob'.

(I wonder what happened to the poor sod who in an early printed edition of the Bible omitted the word 'not' from the Seventh Commandment? What a mistake-a to make-a!)

Graham

[Spitfire]

Bob Big Bloomer

Calling James Hanratty by the wrong name is not the only mistake made by Bob Woffinden.


The edition of Bob’s book which I have is the 1999 Pan edition and I refer to the relevant account which begins at the end of page 127. Bob has described, amongst other things Hanratty’s trip to Liverpool, the bus ride to Rhyl and the quest for digs in a seaside town in the middle of the holiday season. Bob now turns to the return bus ride from Rhyl, which Bob assures us took place in the morning of Thursday 24 August after Hanratty had resolved he could return to London (the Smoke) in ersatz triumph. So far so good; we know that the bus journey is not speedy, the outbound journey taking 2hours 19 minutes, so if Bob is right then Hanratty should have been in Liverpool by 14.20 pm.

Bob does not condescend to giving particulars of times, however, and it is a matter of guesswork as to when it is contended that Hanratty arrived at the Pool but for the moment we can give Jim and Bob the benefit of the doubt. On the second paragraph of page 128 Bob writes as follows:

“At that point the pretence was discarded and Hanratty could tell that the actual truth.”

He then paraphrases Hanratty’s account of the afternoon of 24 August 1961; going to the left luggage to leave his case, having a meal, going to the pictures, sending the telegram to Dixie, trying to get into the Winstone fight, and then off to New Brighton and the funfair.

Bob now quotes Hanratty (page128):

'I was on my own. I came back about 10 o'clock. I went back to the flat, picked up my luggage and took a large sum of cash with me. I went to the station about 10.15. I again put my case in the left luggage-it was a different man-I gave him a 6d tip.’


Has Bob just transplanted the events of 24th August 1961 of the first alibi story into the second alibi story? What flat is Bob talking about? How can Hanratty have put his luggage in the left luggage office twice without removing it in between times? Where has the large amount of cash appeared from?

More questions than answers.

[Sherlock Houses]

Bob might be your uncle...

13 Bobs in that post. Must be some kind of record. In fact I'll bet you ten bob it is.

[gallicrow]

An inch or two

How how about this bit in Simpson's book: "... the range could not have been more than an inch or two ..."

If this is correct then it suggests to me that Gregsten was trying to lunge at Hanratty and got very close before he was shot. Alternatively perhaps Hanratty intended to shoot him at that stage and asked Gregsten to pass him the laundry bag as a way to get closer to him without Gregsten suspecting what he was going to do.

[NickB]

Bob now quotes Hanratty (page128):

'I was on my own. I came back about 10 o'clock. I went back to the flat, picked up my luggage and took a large sum of cash with me.

Good point. The changed alibi does not allow for staying in a flat. Even when he went back to Liverpool on 7th October he said he stayed at a B&B in New Brighton.

[moste]

Calling James Hanratty by the wrong name is not the only mistake made by Bob Woffinden.


The edition of Bob’s book which I have is the 1999 Pan edition and I refer to the relevant account which begins at the end of page 127. Bob has described, amongst other things Hanratty’s trip to Liverpool, the bus ride to Rhyl and the quest for digs in a seaside town in the middle of the holiday season. Bob now turns to the return bus ride from Rhyl, which Bob assures us took place in the morning of Thursday 24 August after Hanratty had resolved he could return to London (the Smoke) in ersatz triumph. So far so good; we know that the bus journey is not speedy, the outbound journey taking 2hours 19 minutes, so if Bob is right then Hanratty should have been in Liverpool by 14.20 pm.

Bob does not condescend to giving particulars of times, however, and it is a matter of guesswork as to when it is contended that Hanratty arrived at the Pool but for the moment we can give Jim and Bob the benefit of the doubt. On the second paragraph of page 128 Bob writes as follows:

“At that point the pretence was discarded and Hanratty could tell that the actual truth.”

He then paraphrases Hanratty’s account of the afternoon of 24 August 1961; going to the left luggage to leave his case, having a meal, going to the pictures, sending the telegram to Dixie, trying to get into the Winstone fight, and then off to New Brighton and the funfair.

Bob now quotes Hanratty (page128):

'I was on my own. I came back about 10 o'clock. I went back to the flat, picked up my luggage and took a large sum of cash with me. I went to the station about 10.15. I again put my case in the left luggage-it was a different man-I gave him a 6d tip.’


Has Bob just transplanted the events of 24th August 1961 of the first alibi story into the second alibi story? What flat is Bob talking about? How can Hanratty have put his luggage in the left luggage office twice without removing it in between times? Where has the large amount of cash appeared from?

More questions than answers.

There will likely always be errors in works such as these. Rob Harriman mistakenly refers to the location of the Road Research Labs where VS. and MG. worked as somewhere other than Langley Hall Slough. Lord Russell of Liverpool (page 17) mistakenly claims that the assailant told Gregsten to turn right at the A4 junction with Marsh lane, towards Maidenhead, instead of towards Slough. But who cares, at the end of the day, a faux pas like these, doesn't compare IMHO with Dr. Simpsons .32 calibre statement.