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  #11  
Old 09-24-2016, 05:34 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
I have mentioned the cry of ''Oh murder '' many times over the years, it is precisely the cry a person would utter , if they were dreaming they were being murdered, as well as actually being killed.
Mrs Prater clearly states at the inquest, the cry she heard was like someone ''Awakening from a nightmare''
It is therefore plausible that the cry heard at 4 a.m was not her actually being attacked, but a recurrence of that dream she told Lottie about.
This would give some brownie points to the witnesses, who claim to have seen Mary alive in daylight hours.
The ''Horrors of drink'' that Mrs Maxwell allegedly said Kelly spoke to her, might be a way of saying I am experiencing alcohol induced symptoms .
Regards Richard.
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  #12  
Old 09-24-2016, 09:53 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Thats clever, richardnunweek. Considering the top brass was lauding London as ,practically murder-free, "Oh murder!" must have taken on a life of its own during the hysteria of the autumn. Since constables weren,t finding murders left and right on a weekly basis, there are any number of reasons why it was being ,hoaxed aloud,. It,s somewhat cinematic to imagine Mary waking up in the early hours from that nightmare prior to her murder.

It could have also been an abuse shout. When Kitty meets Lottie, she describes her nose being kicked in by the boot of her husband. Women may have been inclined to shout "Oh murder!" when the abuse became too savage.
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  #13  
Old 09-24-2016, 10:50 AM
Pierre Pierre is online now
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[quote=richardnunweek;393482]

Quote:
Hi,
I have mentioned the cry of ''Oh murder '' many times over the years, it is precisely the cry a person would utter , if they were dreaming they were being murdered, as well as actually being killed.
Mrs Prater clearly states at the inquest, the cry she heard was like someone ''Awakening from a nightmare''
Hi Richard,

There are historical problems with the issues discussed.

Firstly, in the original inquest source, as well as in the original police inquest source, Prater does not say anything about awakening from a nightmare. The provenance are the newspapers.

Secondly, if we think the newspapers are reliable, the statement about a nightmare was an interpretation made by Prater. She was not in the room at the time of the cry. So it was an interpretation of a reason for the cry.

Quote:
It is therefore plausible that the cry heard at 4 a.m was not her actually being attacked, but a recurrence of that dream she told Lottie about.
This would give some brownie points to the witnesses, who claim to have seen Mary alive in daylight hours.
It is therefore not plausible, but possible, that the cry had something to do with a nightmare. But the problem is that the source for Lottieīs statement, which is not a primary source, is later than the newspapers writing about the nightmare statement at the inquest.

Therefore we can not deduce from that secondary source to back up an hypothesis about Prater having made the correct interpretation.

Regards, Pierre
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  #14  
Old 09-24-2016, 11:40 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Secondly, if we think the newspapers are reliable, the statement about a nightmare was an interpretation made by Prater. She was not in the room at the time of the cry. So it was an interpretation of a reason for the cry.
We are making progress if Pierre is actually prepared to allow for the possibility of a newspaper report of inquest proceedings being accurate.
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  #15  
Old 09-24-2016, 11:41 AM
MsWeatherwax MsWeatherwax is offline
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I think it sounds entirely made up. I actually think she heard something much worse, but didn't want to admit that she had heard it and did nothing to help.

My personal opinion is that in that area, at that time, people were used to turning a blind eye. Culturally, at the time (and for a long time afterwards) women taking a hiding from their partners wasn't something people talked about. Prostitutes today are still routinely raped and beaten by clients. People in that Court may have been aware that Mary's partner was opposed to her selling herself and assumed that the early stages of the attack were actually what we know now as a 'domestic incident'. They may have assumed that it was an assault by a client. I don't know.

'Oh, murder' just seems trite to me. If you could see the light through the gaps in the floorboards (correct me if I have that wrong), you could almost certainly hear everything that happened in that room. I don't think that there's a big conspiracy here, just ordinary people too scared to admit that what they actually heard that night was a murder, and they did nothing about it.
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  #16  
Old 09-24-2016, 12:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
We are making progress if Pierre is actually prepared to allow for the possibility of a newspaper report of inquest proceedings being accurate.
"We" are not - i.e. yourself - making anything.

I am not "prepared to allow" for anything.

And as usual, you can not read: "if we think the newspapers are reliable,..."

Do you not understand the word IF?
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  #17  
Old 09-24-2016, 01:10 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
"We" are not - i.e. yourself - making anything.

I am not "prepared to allow" for anything.

And as usual, you can not read: "if we think the newspapers are reliable,..."

Do you not understand the word IF?
Yes of course I understand the word "if" in the sentence "if we think the newspapers are reliable". It means that you are prepared to allow for the possibility of a newspaper report of inquest proceedings being reliable, which is why I said what I did.

If you disagree, it means you don't actually understand what you have posted.
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  #18  
Old 09-24-2016, 01:16 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Hi MsWeatherwax

I believe she made the statement - "they say Jack,s been busy in this quarter lately" - to Lottie in October because she called him ,,Jack,,. Were her fears based on the fact that she may have been a streetwalker?

Mary may have believed that she was safe conducting her business in No. 13 because Jack had not set a precedent for home attacks.

Also. If Mary is supposedly educated, why does Joe have to read the newspaper to her?
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Last edited by Robert St Devil : 09-24-2016 at 01:20 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-25-2016, 06:36 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Hi MsWeatherwax

I believe she made the statement - "they say Jack,s been busy in this quarter lately" - to Lottie in October because she called him ,,Jack,,. Were her fears based on the fact that she may have been a streetwalker?

Mary may have believed that she was safe conducting her business in No. 13 because Jack had not set a precedent for home attacks.

Also. If Mary is supposedly educated, why does Joe have to read the newspaper to her?
Assuming that the statement "they say Jack,s been busy in this quarter lately" is true, then IMHO she's referring to quarter as a location rather than a time period - not both. I think that was the original poster's question?

I think we also only have Joe's say so that Kelly asked him to read the papers to her, but makes sense if she was busy doing other things at the time - washing clothes etc.

Seems quite something to think that today we probably have on-line access to the newspapers Barnett would have read to Kelly.
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  #20  
Old 10-11-2016, 11:08 AM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MsWeatherwax View Post
I think it sounds entirely made up. I actually think she heard something much worse, but didn't want to admit that she had heard it and did nothing to help.

My personal opinion is that in that area, at that time, people were used to turning a blind eye. Culturally, at the time (and for a long time afterwards) women taking a hiding from their partners wasn't something people talked about. Prostitutes today are still routinely raped and beaten by clients. People in that Court may have been aware that Mary's partner was opposed to her selling herself and assumed that the early stages of the attack were actually what we know now as a 'domestic incident'. They may have assumed that it was an assault by a client. I don't know.

'Oh, murder' just seems trite to me. If you could see the light through the gaps in the floorboards (correct me if I have that wrong), you could almost certainly hear everything that happened in that room. I don't think that there's a big conspiracy here, just ordinary people too scared to admit that what they actually heard that night was a murder, and they did nothing about it.
Certainly plausible - but not provable, sadly.
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