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  #11  
Old 06-07-2016, 12:59 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
no I don't, Bozo.
Good. Everyone can see how rude you are.
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  #12  
Old 06-07-2016, 01:09 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Default From Swansons Notes.

Stamped Metropolitan Police Office Received 22/7/90

Man seen with woman at 1.35
Age 30 5ft.7" or 8"
Moustache Fair, Medium build. Coat Pepper and Salt Colour, Loose Jacket
Grey Cloth Cap with Peak of same colour.
Reddish handkercheif around neck with knot.

Like a Sailor
CID Ref 64073

Pat.......................
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  #13  
Old 06-07-2016, 01:10 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
I already knew you had to say that.
Pierre, it's almost like you are psychic.

There is nothing in the original inquest source which tells us that Lawende was "silenced" at any time. One can only get that from newspaper reports.

I can only congratulate you on your U-turn in finally understanding that we need to use both forms of sources, depositions and newspaper reports, to understand what happened at those inquests.
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  #14  
Old 06-07-2016, 01:33 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Paddy,

The following was in The Times, 2nd October 1888, nine days before Mr. Crawford thought that no "further particulars should be given as to the appearance of this man" [seen by Lawende]—

"The following is a description of a man seen in company with a woman who is supposed to be the victim of the murderer in the City. The man was observed in a court in Duke-street, leading to Mitre Square, about 1:40 a.m. on Sunday.

"He is described as of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak."

Regards,

Simon
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  #15  
Old 06-07-2016, 01:52 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi Paddy,

The following was in The Times, 2nd October 1888, nine days before Mr. Crawford thought that no "further particulars should be given as to the appearance of this man" [seen by Lawende]—

"The following is a description of a man seen in company with a woman who is supposed to be the victim of the murderer in the City. The man was observed in a court in Duke-street, leading to Mitre Square, about 1:40 a.m. on Sunday.

"He is described as of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak."

Regards,

Simon
Hi Simon,

yes, whatever the various descriptions were, the point is the external source criticism: What is the function of an inquest source where a witness is silenced - and given the provenience of the same source?

Regards, Pierre
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  #16  
Old 06-07-2016, 02:26 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Below is current UK Law, but I would think it was the same back then.

Reporting restrictions
Typically, the police will inform the Coroner of any reporting restrictions in place as a result of criminal proceedings ongoing and any subsequent impacts thereafter. In most cases, reporting restrictions will be lifted following the finalisation of criminal proceedings, but it is for the police to ensure the Coroner is apprised of restrictions where required for a longer period.


It would seem the City Police had disclosed info and the Metropolitan Police were going to search the boats for a sailor, so requested non disclosure at that time (or vice versa).

Pat................
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  #17  
Old 06-07-2016, 02:46 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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If you look at the Inquest transcripts from the Telegraph on Oct 5th, the jury decided whether it was relevant to them at that time to get further details on the description. Crawford said "Unless the jury wish it, I do not think further particulars should be given as to the appearance of this man."

The Foreman of the jury said they didnt desire it.

Unless Crawford intentionally misled the jury it seems that he would disclose details about the appearance of the man Lawende says he saw that were in the possession of the police.

Again, these Inquests were not about suspects at all, they were about determining the cause and method of death.
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  #18  
Old 06-07-2016, 03:07 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
At the Eddowes inquest Lawende was about to testify about the dress of the man he saw together with Eddowes near the murder site.

But Lawende was silenced by the city solicitor.

The city solicitor said that for particular reasons evidence about the dress of the man should not be given.

The only thing Lawende was allowed to say was that the man had a peaked cap.

Why did they withhold the information about the dress of the man seen with Eddowes before the murder?

Source: Shields Daily Gazette - Thursday 11 October 1888
More sources with the same content:

Hartlepool Northern Daily Mail - Thursday 11 October 1888
South Wales Echo - Thursday 11 October 1888
Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette - Friday 12 October 1888

And in the original inquest sources Lawende states that he has given his description to the police (Evans & Skinner, p. 297).

Regards, Pierre



Pierre

I find this an interesting thread.

probably for different reasons to some.

You are now suggesting that Lawende was silenced by the Authorities, in the person of the City solicitor.

However less than a month ago you said that he was unimportant and his report was not significant:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Hi Craig,

The statements of Smith and Lawende are not significant if you ask me.

Kind regards, Pierre
And

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
3. Lawende could not ID the man or the woman.

(Original sources in transcription, Evans and Skinner, p. 135-138 and 207).

Conclusion: There are discrepancies in the statements from the three witnesses as to the descriptions of the man/ the men. The man /the men seen with the woman might have be any man/any men and not the murderer of Stride. There is no evidence that Lawende saw Stride or the murderer.

So:

A) The sources are not valid for interpreting the men/man/woman as "the murderer with Elizabeth Stride".

B) And obviously they are not reliable, since they differ.

C) And so they are not significant, i.e. the substantial significance is very low. Not just "for me" but for anyone.
Of course here you made a mistake did you not in thinking Lawende was a witness to the Stride murder.

And finally

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post


Quote:
Hi Pierre

Thanks for your reply.

You have previously emphasised the importance of primary sources, and what people said in 1888.

That makes it surprising when you so quickly dismiss the witness statements.
The reason for dismissing the witness statements are even stronger when you have good sources - you know that the variation in the sources is a variation, and you have a solid reason for dismissing them.


Quote:
He identified Eddowes by the clothes she was wearing.

Lawende saw Eddowes with a client shortly before her death. While technically, she may have found another customer, the more likely scenario is she didn't.

Lawende was respected by Police at that time as a credible witness.

I think it's likely that this was an accurate description of the Ripper
But respectability does not matter in this case, since we do not know who he saw. And neither did he.

Regards, Pierre

Therefore I have to ask, if less than a month ago you were saying how unimportant Lawendes description was, how does it now become a matter so important it is official silenced in your view?


regards


Steve
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  #19  
Old 06-07-2016, 04:14 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Good. Everyone can see how rude you are.
And everyone can see how much of a clown you are.

And don't call me "David" again. My name is Abby Normal.
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  #20  
Old 06-08-2016, 03:13 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
And everyone can see how much of a clown you are.

And don't call me "David" again. My name is Abby Normal.
And there you did it again, Abby Normal. Stop being rude and ridiculing. Thanks.
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