Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - by etenguy 1 hour and 6 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - by etenguy 1 hour and 17 minutes ago.
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - by Steadmund Brand 1 hour and 21 minutes ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by Spitfire 3 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 6 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Fisherman 8 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (17 posts)
Tumblety, Francis: Tumblety - Hermaphrodite. - (11 posts)
Witnesses: Why doubt a soldier murdered Tabram? - (11 posts)
Elizabeth Stride: Elizabeth's murder and the double event - (5 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)
Thompson, Francis: Francis Thompson. The Perfect Suspect. - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Witnesses

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #71  
Old 06-08-2016, 09:36 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by curious4 View Post
how many men constitute a group or a gang?
Three (hence the famous phrase "Gang of Three"), or any number which can be expressed as "several persons".
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 06-08-2016, 03:13 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,108
Default

Is this discussion about who killed Emma Smith or what the "certain circumstances" were that made a Pardon for Accomplice the day after Kellys murder warranted? Just wondering since its clear the there is no relationship at all between Emma Smith and the Pardon offer issued Nov 10th. Nor is there between Emma and women who were attacked by one person in the Fall for the purposes of murder and post mortem mutilation...but I realize thats never stopped anyone from imagining one.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 06-08-2016, 03:19 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Just wondering since its clear the there is no relationship at all between Emma Smith and the Pardon offer issued Nov 10th.
The relationship is that a Member of Parliament asked the Home Secretary why no pardon was offered in the case of Emma Smith (and the other murders) where it was believed by him to be equally if not more likely that there was an accomplice or accomplices. See my post #48.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 06-09-2016, 09:02 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 717
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Not necessarily.

And not necessarily for the subsequent murders either, which is no doubt why Hunter was pressing for such a pardon in order to encourage any such accomplice to come forward.
Is this Parliament,s broadstroke (re)action to assuming some direction over the method of investigation, David, and an indication of their desire to undermine Warren, s policies in lieu of his resignation?

Aside: Hi Ros. I know that fingerprinting wasn't yet a forensic practice in 1888, but I believe that Det. Adderline smart enough to make some account of prints if there were any (ie. A measurement, location, comparative). It is peculiar that no traces or tracks were discovered in her apaetment considering his hands must have been dripping after reaching into her chest cavity. It puts me at odds whether he was operating surgically or clinically.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 06-09-2016, 10:26 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Is this Parliament,s broadstroke (re)action to assuming some direction over the method of investigation, David, and an indication of their desire to undermine Warren, s policies in lieu of his resignation?
I think he wanted to know why there hadn't been a pardon offered for any of the earlier murders.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 06-27-2016, 07:38 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 717
Default Are you sure he didn't really say "several men"?

Hello David.

This piece of an article appeared in Daily News on 10 November 1888.

It is well to trace back this recent history of crime in the East end. It began last Christmas week, when a woman was found bleeding and mangled in one of the poorest streets of Whitechapel. She was barbarously wounded, and in a manner somewhat like that which has characterised all the subsequent murders. She lived, if we are not mistaken, long enough to say that the crime was the work of several men. [The article does refute the idea of Jack the Ripper being "several men" later on.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
But the exact number is not important here, only what was in Mr Hunter's mind. He used the expression "several persons" in the House of Commons, although he wasn't fully on top of the facts because he referred to the murder having taken place "last Christmas" so he was getting confused with the supposed murder of Fairy Fay.
Is MP Hunter simply referencing an article that he had read 2 weeks prior?
Could he be forwarding some press agenda on the Home Secretary re: accomplices?



Last edited by Robert St Devil : 06-27-2016 at 07:48 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 07-01-2016, 09:51 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
Hello David.

This piece of an article appeared in Daily News on 10 November 1888.

It is well to trace back this recent history of crime in the East end. It began last Christmas week, when a woman was found bleeding and mangled in one of the poorest streets of Whitechapel. She was barbarously wounded, and in a manner somewhat like that which has characterised all the subsequent murders. She lived, if we are not mistaken, long enough to say that the crime was the work of several men. [The article does refute the idea of Jack the Ripper being "several men" later on.]



Is MP Hunter simply referencing an article that he had read 2 weeks prior?
Could he be forwarding some press agenda on the Home Secretary re: accomplices?
Hi Robert,

Clearly the Daily News has intermingled the story of the murder of Emma Smith and the story of the murder of "Fairy Fay" which could easily have been the source of MP Hunter's confusion.

I don't understand what you mean when you suggest Hunter might be "forwarding some press agenda". As far as I'm concerned, it's just a mistake due to the lack of facts available regarding the early murder(s).
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 07-01-2016, 11:27 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 717
Default

No worries, David. Some good discussions happening on the other threads lately.

I,ll abandon the second question since it is sophomore speculation on my part. Certain press publications were brutal on Mr. Matthews and Sir Ch. Warren, but i would clearly need more evidence to begin to even speculate that MP Hunter was lobbying for them.

I don,t think the Daily News intermingled the story. That same Nov 10 issue [same paragraph], they follow up on the above comment with:

About Easter time another murder was committed in the same region which appeared to belong to the newly invented order of assassination.

They were clear that there was a separate murder ,,last Christmas week,, from the Easter murder, but it never garnered much attention from the press or public.

Because of the nearness of the article to his Nov 24 appeal to broaden pardons for all accomplices AND for some of the similar verbiage that you posted that he used, yes, i could see this article being the source of his confusion.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 07-01-2016, 12:06 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
They were clear that there was a separate murder ,,last Christmas week,, from the Easter murder, but it never garnered much attention from the press or public.
You mean a sort of secret murder that the Daily News found out about but which we know nothing of today?
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.