Queen Mary and Lord Mayor

[Rosella]

How many historical characters is Pierre going to introduce into this narrative of his? Tennyson's 'Queen Mary' was about Mary I ('Bloody Mary') not Mary Queen of Scots, who was of course cousin to both Elizabeth I and Mary I.

I guess this all is leading to Roman Catholicism in the Protestant country of England in the 1880's. What's next, James I and Guy Fawkes?

[Mayerling]

Originally Posted by Rosella

How many historical characters is Pierre going to introduce into this narrative of his? Tennyson's 'Queen Mary' was about Mary I ('Bloody Mary') not Mary Queen of Scots, who was of course cousin to both Elizabeth I and Mary I.

I guess this all is leading to Roman Catholicism in the Protestant country of England in the 1880's. What's next, James I and Guy Fawkes?

Well, now that I got that poesy clowning out of me a bit, I could point this out. The tragedy of Mary, Queen of Scots (leading to her eventual trial and execution at Fotheringay Castle in 1587) starts when Mary I of England dies in 1558. Mary I was the first Catholic monarch of England after the Reformation, and had (as Tennyson's turgid play states) tried to return England to the old faith by force. This led to the fires at Moorefield (I think it was Moorefield) where many Protestants were burned including Archbishop Cranmer and Bishop Ridley. Also it was pushed by Mary's husband & cousin Philip of Spain, who married Mary principally for the purposes of politics against France (which had the then little Princess Mary of Scotland married to the heir to the French throne, Francois). In 1558 Mary I dies of cancer (she had thought she was pregnant by Philip). During the five year reign of Mary her half - sister Elizabeth had been in the Tower of London, and under constant threat of death. She had been carefully advised by William Cecil as to how to avoid this fate, and when she inherits the throne Cecil remains her chief advisor until his death in the 1590s. But for Catholics, Mary of Scotland was the legitimate next in line as she was 1) Catholic, and 2) Elizabeth's legal standing as heir was weakened due to the antics of her father Henry VIII, who had occasionally declared her a bastard - like when her mother was beheaded in 1535.

To help out Mary's claim against Elizabeth, in 1559 King Henri II of France was killed in a jousting tournament accident and his son became King Francois II of France. This was coupled to the fact that Mary of Scotland's uncles (on her mother's side) were the Duc of Guise and his brother, who were very powerful at court. Mary's problems were that her young husband's health was poor (he died in 1560), and her mother-in-law, Catherine de Medici, hated her as a potential power rival. When Francois dies, Mary is advised to return to her own kingdom (a really difficult throne in itself, which she will lose within a decade). While active Queen of Scots, Mary will start considering her relationship to the Catholics in England as their chosen "real" queen.

So there is a real link here between that picture and Tennyson's stage verse drama (poor man, he was a great poet, and did turn out Victorian England's greatest verse novel, "The Idylls of the King", but none of his plays were successful, except when William Gilbert took his "The Princess" and made "Princess Ida" with Sir Arthur Sullivan - and that operetta is too long and not revived frequently like "Pinafore" or "The Mikado").

As for "Guy Fawks" - well the November holiday that passed only nine days back is connected to a British murder, but from 1930. The notorious "burning car" murder of the unknown man by Alfred Rouse was planned for November 5, 1930 because Rouse thought that the appearance of his burning car would be mistaken as another bonfire set on that day (when figures of Fawks are thrown down on bonfires). Given the anti-Catholicism endemic in that holiday I don't know how popular it really is anymore, unless they now switch it's meaning as an assault on would-be terrorists trying to overthrow the government.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

It was Smithfield where the Protestants were burned, not Moorefield.

[Rosella]

The whole history of the Tudor period is of tremendous interest, Mayerling. Of course it is, and I would also like to discuss various aspects of the intriguing 'burning car' case here on the forum in the future.

However, all these convoluted clues and references Pierre keeps posting will tie us all in knots before we're finished. Mary Queen of Scots' portrait, Queen Mary, the play by Tennyson, the Lord Mayor of London etc are just teasers.

If the motive is all about religious controversy in the late Victorian period, especially the position of Roman Catholics in England at the time, and his suspect is connected with that, why not just be open about it and say so?

[curious4]

Sorry, but I can't think that there was any other motive for slaughtering these poor women than that a seriously disturbed killer enjoyed doing it. To imply that there was a political or social reason for doing this makes a mockery of the deaths of these women. What would we say when looking at the bodies of Mary and Kate? There was a valid reason for doing this? This is putting them in the same category as the killer did; it didn't matter because they were worthless.

George Bernard Shaw was being ironic, if anyone missed that.

Best wishes
C4

[David Orsam]

Originally Posted by Rosella

If the motive is all about religious controversy in the late Victorian period, especially the position of Roman Catholics in England at the time, and his suspect is connected with that, why not just be open about it and say so?

Also, Pierre, following on from Rosella's post, why not simply post a copy or the text of the letter that was published in the press? You have told us it doesn't contain the name of the killer so we will still be in the dark about that (and no innocent people will be accused). And you have told us it is digitised, so it can't be destroyed.

There are a lot of members of this forum who will be able to help you with deciphering the letter in case you have missed any clues, and they will ensure you do not make basic errors like getting your Marys confused.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Rosella

How many historical characters is Pierre going to introduce into this narrative of his? Tennyson's 'Queen Mary' was about Mary I ('Bloody Mary') not Mary Queen of Scots, who was of course cousin to both Elizabeth I and Mary I.

I guess this all is leading to Roman Catholicism in the Protestant country of England in the 1880's. What's next, James I and Guy Fawkes?

Hi Rosella,

it was the name, not the queen.

Regards Pierre

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Pcdunn

... Queen Elizabeth I.

(This grows more and more interesting...)

Thank you Pcdunn.

Because in this letter which I think is written by the killer, he also gives the adress with the room number to Elizabeth Prater.

Now, we know that Elizabeth said that she barricaded her door with two tables.

She was lucky.

Pierre

[David Orsam]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Because in this letter which I think is written by the killer, he also gives the adress with the room number to Elizabeth Prater.

Now, we know that Elizabeth said that she barricaded her door with two tables.

Am I understanding you correctly that the letter you have found contains the names Mary and Elizabeth and a reference to Lord Mayor's Day?

And you think that Mary is actually Mary Jane Kelly while Elizabeth is actually Elizabeth Prater?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by David Orsam

Am I understanding you correctly that the letter you have found contains the names Mary and Elizabeth and a reference to Lord Mayor's Day?

And you think that Mary is actually Mary Jane Kelly while Elizabeth is actually Elizabeth Prater?

Hi David,

The letter gives the street adress and both room numbers of Mary and Elizabeth in metaphorical style and it gives a hint at Tennyson.

Tennyson wrote the drama Queen Mary and the drama includes Elizabeth as well as the Lord Mayor.

Of course he would not write their true names and adresses in the newspapers. The police would have been waiting for him.

But I think one reason for the extensive mutilations on Kelly was that he could not enter the room of Elizabeth because the door was barricaded with two tables.

That must have been a great disappointment to him.

Pierre