Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Non-Fiction: Patricia Cornwell - Walter Sickert - BOOK 2 - by Elamarna 1 hour and 16 minutes ago.
General Discussion: The Double Event - by Elamarna 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Robert Paul Time Issues - by Elamarna 2 hours ago.
Witnesses: Robert Paul Time Issues - by harry 3 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: Patricia Cornwell - Walter Sickert - BOOK 2 - by PaulB 4 hours ago.
Non-Fiction: Patricia Cornwell - Walter Sickert - BOOK 2 - by GUT 4 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Non-Fiction: Patricia Cornwell - Walter Sickert - BOOK 2 - (24 posts)
Witnesses: Robert Paul Time Issues - (17 posts)
General Discussion: The Double Event - (5 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (3 posts)
Martha Tabram: Now Showing: Union Jack - (3 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #4101  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:51 AM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 711
Default

His book has been quoted on this forum before, and the bit that sprang out at me was:
“I think he [Victor Durant] would not have gone down to the cells each day as I did before the court rose. That might not have given Hanratty the chance to change his alibi.”

As he thinks Durant would have won the case, this suggests that he considers the alibi change to be a mistake. As does this:
"The whole balance of the case had been altered by the late alibi, the subject of fearsome prosecution criticism."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
The clear written instructions of that date were to find the landlady of the boarding house
And they didn’t start looking for another week. Which is why I think the note was part of their efforts to get him to drop Rhyl, hoping that when it was put in writing formally he might be jolted into seeing sense and not sign. The efforts to dissuade him could have continued afterwards and, if successful, the note rescinded.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4102  
Old 03-10-2017, 10:09 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 506
Default

Foot suggests that the search for Hanratty's Rhyl digs commenced as soon as Hanratty first informed his legal team of his new alibi. Page 220 "Gillbanks left at once for Rhyl." And at p 221 after Hanratty's statement of 29 January, "The information was sent at once to Gillbanks." Also the note of 26 January made by Kleinman or someone in his office refers to Gillbanks being in Rhyl.

The question then becomes when did Hanratty and his legal team in Bedford have the information conveyed to them from Gillbanks in Rhyl? On this Foot and Woffinden disagree. Foot says 7 February and Woffinden 6 February. My hunch would be that Woffinden is right and that Sherrard unleashed the Rhyl alibi on the afternoon of 6 February having had information that there was evidence to substantiate it.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4103  
Old 03-10-2017, 02:37 PM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 711
Default

If my reading of Woffinden is correct he has the sequence as follows:
1. Hanratty signs the note;
2. Photographs are taken of Hanratty;
3. Gillbanks is sent to Rhyl.

This makes more sense to me, as Gillbanks would need the photos when he made enquiries. It means that he came across Ingledene quite quickly, but all he needed to do was find a guest house with a green bath and a co-operative landlady.

In section 186 of the Appeal, the defence complains that information the prosecution obtained about the Liverpool-Rhyl bus timing was not disclosed. If the 1962 defence team had been investigating for a week they would have found out information like this themselves.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4104  
Old 03-10-2017, 03:01 PM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickB View Post
If my reading of Woffinden is correct he has the sequence as follows:
1. Hanratty signs the note;
2. Photographs are taken of Hanratty;
3. Gillbanks is sent to Rhyl.

This makes more sense to me, as Gillbanks would need the photos when he made enquiries. It means that he came across Ingledene quite quickly, but all he needed to do was find a guest house with a green bath and a co-operative landlady.

In section 186 of the Appeal, the defence complains that information the prosecution obtained about the Liverpool-Rhyl bus timing was not disclosed. If the 1962 defence team had been investigating for a week they would have found out information like this themselves.
That is the impression I get from reading Woffinden's account, but Foot at page 220 writes:

"The first document mentioning the Rhyl alibi in the defence papers is one of the many hurried scrawls written, literally on the back of an envelope, by someone in Mr Kleinman's office. It is dated January 26th -- that is the Friday of the first week of the trial:
'Gillbanks phoned...have traced people H stayed with in Rhyl.He stayed with man referred to as John, who is in fact Terry Evans and who has an old taxi. H stayed overnight and stole a pair of shoes. Evans has never seen him since.'
"


Then the note goes on:
'There is such a cafe as described...Hundreds of bed and breakfast houses which back on railway station and which have no front gardens."
So, if Foot is right about the note, Gillbanks was looking for B & Bs in Rhyl as early as January 26th. I can't believe that Foot has imagined this note, and I can't understand why Woffinden doesn't include it in what purports to be a comprehensive narrative.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4105  
Old 03-11-2017, 08:46 AM
Derrick Derrick is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 565
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
...One of the things which this case much teach us is the fallibility of human memory, whether it is in the recall of the facts of an incident or the physiognomy of the perpetrator of a crime...Nothing seems to have been done about the change of alibi until the defence team went into action and a photograph was taken of Jim on 5 October, which was then shown to the landladies of Rhyl...
How true Spitto.

The photo of Hanratty could not possibly have been taken on the 5th October as he hadn't even been arrested then.

Dello
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4106  
Old 03-11-2017, 10:18 AM
Spitfire Spitfire is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 506
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derrick View Post
How true Spitto.

The photo of Hanratty could not possibly have been taken on the 5th October as he hadn't even been arrested then.

Dello
My mistake, 5 February 1962.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post

The photograph of Jim was taken on the 5 February and shown to Mrs Jones on the following day(if Woffinden is right and Foot wrong). Once she confirmed that the man in the photo was the man whom she remembered staying the previous August, then Sherrard could let the cat out of the bag which he did to Swanwick's annoyance at 4.30 pm on 6 February.
As anyone reading the thread would have discovered.

Last edited by Spitfire : 03-11-2017 at 10:22 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4107  
Old 03-11-2017, 01:20 PM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 711
Default

One of the pages from the Sunday Times magazine article ...
Attached Images
  
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4108  
Old 03-12-2017, 03:04 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 386
Default

Many thanks, Nick. I found that page from the Sunday Times magazine article fascinatng. If you are able to post other pages, it would be much appreciated.

Btw, the final quote in the extract appears to again show Kleinman more concerned with his own reputation than anything else.

Best regards,

OneRound
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4109  
Old 03-12-2017, 06:56 AM
NickB NickB is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 711
Default

Another page ...
Attached Images
  
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #4110  
Old 03-13-2017, 04:13 AM
OneRound OneRound is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 386
Default

Excellent stuff, Nick. Thanks again.

Arguments for and against Hanratty going back and forth more than fifty years ago just as they do today.

Couple of examples of the assortment of claims.

Hanratty was a car thief and a good driver, according to his supporters. Hanratty never passed a driving test and was an appalling driver, according to others. However, his supporters respond that even if he was that bad a driver, he would still be able to operate the gears of one of the simplest cars on the road.

Trower is sure he saw Hanratty driving the car. Hogan says Trower couldn't have done. Trower counters by saying it was Hogan who took him back to the police to report the sighting.

Whilst Ansonman pops out to buy fence panels for the writers of the 1966 article, I would just emphasise the doubts and uncertainties it raised. That in turn backs up my long held view that guilt was not proved beyond reasonable doubt. It does though probably also back up the view that Hanratty should not have changed alibis and alienated the jury in the process.

Best regards,

OneRound

Last edited by OneRound : 03-13-2017 at 04:33 AM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.