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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Elizabeth Stride

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  #131  
Old 03-05-2017, 01:07 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Exactly. If there had been twenty victims all of whom were the same age and then one much older or younger then I might have doubts but here we are only dealing with five victims hardly enough to establish any sort of pattern let alone to say it is set in stone.

c.d.
And surely the same applies to the wounds inflicted.
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  #132  
Old 03-06-2017, 10:03 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
We've been through this before, Michael. You live in this fantasy world where the killer must be locked into the exact same victim profile and method every single time. This isn't a movie, serial killers have been known to deviate from certain ritualistic behaviour, and in the Ripper's case he didn't so much deviate as escalate in violence. As for the victimology, most serial killers are opportunists who will seek out whatever vulnerable prey they can find. On the first two occasions it happened to be two middle-aged prostitutes, but that doesn't mean that he would eschew from killing a younger victim should be the circumstances avail themselves of one.
Harry,
This is really much simpler than its been made out to be....when we have the first 2 consecutive Unsolved murders assumed to be Jack the Rippers victims almost identical in every important aspect, why would we assume he changes after that murder? Because he was interrupted with Stride? There is no evidence that happened. The evidence suggests the murder was a completed act. Because Kate was mutilated after the throat cuts? Her mutilations were done by someone who had less skill, and clearly no focal point on her physiology. We also have evidence that she may have intended to give police a name of a local man for the unsolved killings...which if true,...the story she was going to the police I mean,...then that's a motive for murder. We then have a woman who was in her mid twenties, in her own room and bed, inside a tiny courtyard, being taken apart with clear evidence of anger exhibited. We also have the victims admission, again in story form, that she was in a love triangle. Again...possible motive for murder...if the party on the outside is dangerous. We have evidence that this man named Joe "mistreated' Mary in the past.

Remember, the contemporary "opinion" was that Five women were connected by killer, but the evidence available links zero of them with any killer.

My question to you and my naysayer following is this....on what grounds do we disregard evidence from the first 2 murders that suggests the same killer, the same methodology, the same Victimology and the same signature?
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  #133  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:28 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Harry,
This is really much simpler than its been made out to be....when we have the first 2 consecutive Unsolved murders assumed to be Jack the Rippers victims almost identical in every important aspect, why would we assume he changes after that murder? Because he was interrupted with Stride? There is no evidence that happened. The evidence suggests the murder was a completed act. Because Kate was mutilated after the throat cuts? Her mutilations were done by someone who had less skill, and clearly no focal point on her physiology. We also have evidence that she may have intended to give police a name of a local man for the unsolved killings...which if true,...the story she was going to the police I mean,...then that's a motive for murder. We then have a woman who was in her mid twenties, in her own room and bed, inside a tiny courtyard, being taken apart with clear evidence of anger exhibited. We also have the victims admission, again in story form, that she was in a love triangle. Again...possible motive for murder...if the party on the outside is dangerous. We have evidence that this man named Joe "mistreated' Mary in the past.

Remember, the contemporary "opinion" was that Five women were connected by killer, but the evidence available links zero of them with any killer.

My question to you and my naysayer following is this....on what grounds do we disregard evidence from the first 2 murders that suggests the same killer, the same methodology, the same Victimology and the same signature?
I'm actually interested to know why you think Polly and Annie were the same man now but none of the others.Polly had no organs removed but both chapman and eddows had the uterus removed.
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  #134  
Old 03-07-2017, 12:13 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I'm actually interested to know why you think Polly and Annie were the same man now but none of the others.Polly had no organs removed but both chapman and eddows had the uterus removed.
Both were middle aged, both were compromised physically, both were actively soliciting, both were subdued quietly and had their throats cut twice, both were on their back with legs akimbo and clothing pulled up to expose abdomen as mutilations took place, both had the focus of the mutilations on their abdomens.

I am on the fence with Kate as Ive said before, but the lack of skill exhibited combined with the superfluous injuries and the possible murder motive make me hesitant to include her.

For me this isn't about matching exact organs taken, or whether the women were occasionally driven to solicitation for survival, its about the manner in which the victims were accessed and the step-by-step processes that followed.
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  #135  
Old 03-07-2017, 12:46 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
Both were middle aged, both were compromised physically, both were actively soliciting, both were subdued quietly and had their throats cut twice, both were on their back with legs akimbo and clothing pulled up to expose abdomen as mutilations took place, both had the focus of the mutilations on their abdomens.

I am on the fence with Kate as Ive said before, but the lack of skill exhibited combined with the superfluous injuries and the possible murder motive make me hesitant to include her.

For me this isn't about matching exact organs taken, or whether the women were occasionally driven to solicitation for survival, its about the manner in which the victims were accessed and the step-by-step processes that followed.
OK-thanks. I still think eddowes has more similarities to chapman than Polly does but whatever.
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  #136  
Old 03-07-2017, 12:59 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Five women were killed, all had their throats cut, four were mutilated, three had internal organs removed. All of them were killed in the same district, over a short period of time. If that doesn't constitute a pattern, I'm not sure what does.
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  #137  
Old 03-10-2017, 12:24 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I didn't say Phillips said Annies Killer was a medical professional John, and I really detest when posters inaccurately synopsize what is being said... I said that after Annies murder and based on Phillips statements....some of which I posted,...the authorities chose to look for medically trained suspects in September. They did not continue that pattern after the Double Event, because clearly those kills did not fit that profile. Instead, like so many of our treasured serial killer advocates do, they just assumed that the lesser skilled subsequent kills and mutilations were poorly executed but explainable....like Lizs killer was interrupted, Kates killer was in too dark an environment and was acting too hastily, or Marys killer took a long time taking her apart because he was indoors. They forget, or ignore, that Liz Strides murder shows no evidence at all of being interrupted, that the lack of skill evident on Kate might just be a lack of skills...which contrasts Annies killer,... or that Marys murder while in bed had nothing at all to do with a killer who killed and mutilated middle aged women while they actively solicited outdoors..

Whatever Trevors modern day experts believe they see in notes taken is of interest to them I'm sure, but as I said earlier, Phillips saw 4 Canonicals in the morgue...he inspected the wounds with his eyes and hands, not with his aptitude for interpreting more than century old doctors notes. He didn't see the skills with Liz, and when asked later if he thought Kate should be included in the list that contemporary investigators created for kills they wanted to attribute to a single maniac, he stated he didn't see that Kates wounds were the same as the earlier 2 women he examined.

Its simply the reality that matters to me, fictional ideas about why the subsequent murders didn't look anything like the first 2 are entertaining but hardly convincing.
I'm sorry to have to press you on this, Michael, but what is the source for Dr Phillips' supposedly asserting that he didn't think Eddowes' wounds were similar to Chapman's. You refer to "the earlier 2 women he examined". When did he examine Nichols? Source please. When did Dr Phillips say that he believed Eddowes' perpetrator to be less skilled than Chapman's? Source please.
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  #138  
Old 03-10-2017, 08:34 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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I'm sorry to have to press you on this, Michael, but what is the source for Dr Phillips' supposedly asserting that he didn't think Eddowes' wounds were similar to Chapman's. You refer to "the earlier 2 women he examined". When did he examine Nichols? Source please. When did Dr Phillips say that he believed Eddowes' perpetrator to be less skilled than Chapman's? Source please.
Sorry John, I'm doing this mostly from work these days and don't have access to my own categorized database. Ill try to get some time to do that this weekend. It was a press report with an interview with Phillips, if I recall, sometime after Alices murder, one which he discounted based on his impression her murder was probably sexually motivated. I know that he had no formal role with Nichols, but If I recall correctly he offered his perspective on whether hers and Annies murder were by the same hand.

Hi comments on the skill shown with Kate were made that Fall I believe.

Again, Ill try to post the sources once I get at the files.
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  #139  
Old 03-14-2017, 11:02 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Is this the article you were thinking of Michael?

Evening News 1st Oct

"THE TWO MURDERS NOT BY THE SAME HAND

The idea has got abroad that in some way it is sought to advance medical science by human vivisection, but however likely or unlikely the theory may be, it must not too readily be assumed that the two murders of yesterday morning had the same object. Dr. Phillips who was called to Berner-street shortly after the discovery of the woman's body, gives (so says Dr. Gordon, who has made a post-mortem examination of the other body) it as his opinion that the two murders were not committed by the same man. Upon this point Dr. Phillips is an authority. He it was who examined Annie Chapman and discovered the purpose of the murder. Since that he has been to Newcastle to investigate the brutal murder there, and he is qualified in some measure to speak of the manner of the assassin's workmanship."
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  #140  
Old 03-14-2017, 11:27 AM
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Default Double the coincidence, double the low probability

Not only do non-canonical views of Stride being the victim of a different killer require that you accept it was just a coincidental violent homicide that night, but that it is also a coincidence that if you leave the site of Stride's murder at the time Stride died and walk at a normal pace towards Mitre Square you will inevitably meet Eddowes on the same trajectory coming out of the drunk tank. It isn't just a matter of *might* see her, if you go that way, time/speed, you will be in that location, within looking distance of people around you and Eddowes *MUST* be one of them because we know what time she left the drunk tank and which way she headed.

That's two big coincidences you need to accept in believing them unrelated.

The probability is virtually nil of them uncorrelated because of timing and trajectories.
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