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  #41  
Old 11-11-2014, 02:28 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Hi Christer

Could you provide the source for Thains noticing blood on the gates?

The Pall Mall Gazette (London, England), Tuesday, September 18, 1888
"There was much blood against the gate, and some was running down the pavement"


And does he say that she was cut standing or that she was grabbed in that way? I canīt recall that either, so you will have to help out.

I was wrong on this one. Misread it. Damned shapnel.

Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper (London, England), Sunday, September 2, 1888
"He does not believe that the woman was seized from behind and her throat cut"
I think it amounts to two wrongs and no right, Iīm afraid. There is nothing speaking of any bloodstains on the gates here, is there? "There was much blood against the gate" will mean that there was a large quantity of blood on the ground in the general direction of the gate. Hereīs the Morning Advertisers take on the exact same thing:
The Coroner: Was there a very large quantity on the flags? -- Witness: There was a large clot near the wall, and blood was running into the gutter.
I think you will find that this is the version that presents the truth. It is in line with all other versions. The Pall Mall Gazette is not.

But letīs leave it for now, before it gets silly. I think we could perhaps agree that out of the four throat-cut murders with opened-up stomachs, the Nichols deed is the only one where the abdominal cuts may have preceded the cuts to the throat. In that sense, it ties in with my suggestions.

In no other of these cases could the cut(s) to the throat have come after the eviscerations.

The best,
Fisherman
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  #42  
Old 11-12-2014, 02:14 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
I think it amounts to two wrongs and no right, Iīm afraid. There is nothing speaking of any bloodstains on the gates here, is there? "There was much blood against the gate" will mean that there was a large quantity of blood on the ground in the general direction of the gate. Hereīs the Morning Advertisers take on the exact same thing:
The Coroner: Was there a very large quantity on the flags? -- Witness: There was a large clot near the wall, and blood was running into the gutter.
I think you will find that this is the version that presents the truth. It is in line with all other versions. The Pall Mall Gazette is not.
I don`t think so, at all. Have you looked at the article to which I referred ?
But yes, let`s leave it.
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  #43  
Old 11-12-2014, 04:05 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I don`t think so, at all. Have you looked at the article to which I referred ?
But yes, let`s leave it.
Yes, I have read the article - and a few more articles, like for example these:

The Echo: There was a large quantity of congealed blood on the pavement, near the woman's neck.

The Evening Standard: There was a large clot near the wall, and blood was running into the gutter.

The Illustrated Police News: In the gutter there was a large quantity of blood which had run off the pavement.

The St James Gazette: He saw a quantity of blood all congealed.

The Times: On the spot where the deceased had been lying was a mass of congealed blood. He should say it was about 6 in. in diameter, and had run towards the gutter.

These articles all reflect the exact same matter as the one you pointed to in the Pall Mall Gazette. This is shown by the full quotation you kindly provided:
"There was much blood against the gate, and some was running down the pavement."

We here take part of the fact that what Thain said, he coupled to stating that the blood had been floating down the pavement, towards the gutter. This fixes the quotation as the one I previously posted another version of, as per The Morning Advertiser. In it, it is clear that Thain answered a question from the coroner:
The Coroner: Was there a very large quantity on the flags? -- Witness: There was a large clot near the wall, and blood was running into the gutter.

So here it is again - there was a large quantitiy of blood on the ground where she had lain, and that is the blood the Pall Mall Gazette speaks of too. Notice how it is said that there was "much blood" against the gate, and not the odd spot of blood as you seemingly believed it was all about from the outset.

So we may have the Pall Mall Gazette picking up on something all the other papers missed out on - while it seems the Pall Mall Gazette text has the exact same element added that of speaking about how the blood went down the pavement to the gutter.
Or we may have to recognize that the Pall Mall Gazette simply worded itself differently than all the other papers that reported on the exact same matter, thus not being very clear.

The litmus paper in this case is to look at what was generally said about where there was blood. So we have to listen to the much appraised coroner, Wynne Baxter, who said:
There was not a trace of blood anywhere, except at the spot where her neck was lying.

Baxter was not a very thorough man always. But I think we can bank on him having mentioned if the gate had had a large quantity of congealed (!) blood on it.

Now is a good time to leave it, Jon, when we have all the cards on the table. If you wish to add to it, please do so. Otherwise, I think we need to settle for the obvious thing that "against" often means "in close vicinity" to.
To bolster this, I searched the net for two seconds, finding this:
The terrace against the house is a lawn, with two stone benches standing against the wall between the house and the stable block.

Is the terrace - which is a lawn - spread over the house wall? Are the stone benches erected on the wall?
Or are the terrace and the benches in close vicinity of and leading the eye to the house wall?

I really donīt think there is much more to say on the topic, so Iīm out, Jon.

All the best,
Fisherman

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-12-2014 at 04:08 AM.
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  #44  
Old 11-12-2014, 08:34 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Michael W Richards:

It seems to me that Polly may have been choked, or held in a sleeper hold, until her heart stopped beating, or the rate was so low as to prevent much spillage even when major arteries were accessed.

Then the killer would need to wait for five minutes or so before the heart stopped beating. As I said before, Polly had more blood left in her body when discovered than any other Canonical, which could be attributed to her being found just after the acts had taken place.

And who does that point towards?

The best,
Fisherman
Hi Fisherman,

I don't think that any significant time need elapse to stop her heart, if she was subdued in a particular manner. As I posted, the heart gets signals from the brain when oxygen is cut off, and the message is either to slow or stop the heart beat. If she had her throat cut before anything, yes, her heart would beat until the volume of blood that has escaped is reduced to very minimal amounts, but if she was put into a sleeper hold by someone who knew how to do that, her heart may stop beating within a minute.

There needs to be some explanation for the lack of blood evidence Fish, the only viable one is that her heart wasn't pumping blood when the cuts were made. The blood spilled is leaked from the arteries and the abdominal wounds, not from a "pumped" spray.

Cheers
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  #45  
Old 11-12-2014, 12:39 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Michael W Richards: Hi Fisherman,

I don't think that any significant time need elapse to stop her heart, if she was subdued in a particular manner. As I posted, the heart gets signals from the brain when oxygen is cut
off, and the message is either to slow or stop the heart beat.

Yes, I know that, and I donīt doubt it - what I am saying is that the time lapse will normally be significant. There has been scientific work carried out on hanged criminals, for example, showing that their hearts have gone on beating for VERY long periods of time in many cases.

If she had her throat cut before anything, yes, her heart would beat until the volume of blood that has escaped is reduced to very minimal amounts, but if she was put into a sleeper hold by someone who knew how to do that, her heart may stop beating within a minute.

... but probably not. As I wrote before, four to six minutes is seemingly what to expect. And as I also wrote: look at people who are saved from having fallen into swimming pools; in that case, we are speaking of a total lack of oxygen, so the brain should say "stop it" to the heart very quickly if we go on your line of reasoning.
Apparently, though, this is not what happens - instead the heart beats for many minutes!

I am also having trouble envisaging a killer that keeps his grip on his victimīs necks for a minute or much more - I think he was a very speedy customer, strangling into unconsciousness before he started cutting. And THAT is a much quicker affair!

There needs to be some explanation for the lack of blood evidence Fish, the only viable one is that her heart wasn't pumping blood when the cuts were made. The blood spilled is leaked from the arteries and the abdominal wounds, not from a "pumped" spray.

In that case, we have to make a difference between the abdominal wounds and the neck; in the neck, we have main arteries with high pressure. But in the stomach, he would not have come in contact with such vessels in the same manner. If we cut ourselves in our fingers, we donīt produce a blood-spurt, do we? Same thing with the stomach - there is pressure in the bloodvessels there too, but it is by far and away not as powerful as that in the main arteries!

So there is the evidence, Michael. There was never any lack of blood - Thain said that his opinion was that the blood underneath Nichols was plentyful. But if the killer had cut the main arteries in the neck with Nichols being still alive and with a pumping heart, we would have seen arterial blood shooting out. So that only leaves us with two possibilities:

Either the killer succeeded to stop Nichols heart by way of strangling - in which case we would still not be able to say whether the neck cuts or the abdominal cuts came first - or he began with the abdominal cuts and stopped her heart that way, without any arterial spray being given away.

When guessing, we need to take into account that a heart will normally go on beating for a good number of minutes even if it is deprived of oxygen.

To me, it leans towards Llewellyn being right.
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