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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Police Officials and Procedures > Neil, P.C. John

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  #81  
Old 05-05-2016, 08:50 PM
GUT GUT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Columbo View Post
I forgot where I read this but Monty can probably verify it. The Bobbies on the beat had to adhere to a strict schedule. If anything happened on their beat and they weren't were they were supposed to be time wise they caught a lot of crap from their superiors. So I was trying to figure out if it was habit with the help of community clocks that was the most common way to judge time.

Columbo
Basically yes.

They were trained to walk at a fairly precise speed so if they started their beet at 10:00 they knew they'd be back at the start at 10:15, 10:30 etc.

I guess they'd also check when the passed public clocks, knew the clock at x church was 3 minutes into the beat, so 10:03, 10:18 etc and at Y building 12 minutes into the beat so same etc.

I understand that a knock up was for "When you pass my place on your 4:15 lap" etc.
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  #82  
Old 05-05-2016, 09:25 PM
Columbo Columbo is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Basically yes.

They were trained to walk at a fairly precise speed so if they started their beet at 10:00 they knew they'd be back at the start at 10:15, 10:30 etc.

I guess they'd also check when the passed public clocks, knew the clock at x church was 3 minutes into the beat, so 10:03, 10:18 etc and at Y building 12 minutes into the beat so same etc.

I understand that a knock up was for "When you pass my place on your 4:15 lap" etc.
Excellent. That helps a lot. Thanks.

Columbo
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  #83  
Old 05-06-2016, 03:14 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Now earlier it was rated top ten or even top two in ripper books, but I will tell you this, it is NUMBER ONE in police procedure books.
Are you looking for a cut also? ;-)

Monty
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  #84  
Old 05-06-2016, 03:25 AM
Monty Monty is offline
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You seriously need my book Columbo.

Beat constables walked their beats at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 mph, depending on which shift they were on. The would meet with their section sergeants, at an agreed location, at set times during their beat. This to provide an update for the sergeant.

Sergeants would also do spot checks, to ensure the constable is where he should be. However, if a constable can provide a valid reason, such as making an arrest, dealing with a disturbance, or even on a tea break (yes, that was permitted) for not being where he should be, then he would be excused.

As for knocking up, it was a carry on from the old days of The Watch. It was permitted, only if it didn't impact on the beat constables primary duties, and with consent.

Monty
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  #85  
Old 05-06-2016, 03:29 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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Are you looking for a cut also? ;-)

Monty
Nope, just believe in credit where it's due, if I see an error in the next one I'll be among the first to savage it.
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  #86  
Old 05-06-2016, 03:35 AM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
Well I was trying to make everything fit with his statement and what we (think we) know of his beat. So 'up Baker's Row' isn't inconsistent, if he turned into White's Row, although it's true that it's not as far 'up' as Thomas Street.
Whether he entered Buckís Row from the north or south part of Thomas Street is perhaps not so important; the important thing is that both possibilities would explain why Neil didnít see the carmen and vice versa, while the chance would be much smaller if he would have entered it directly from Baker's Row.
Quote:
PC Neil said he said he "went across", which I took the mean across the intervening ground, rather than the street. Certainly his testimony seems to put him on the South side;
Youíre right, Joshua, he was walking on the south side, itís only the Lloydís Weekly News of 2 September that has him walking on the north side.

Best,
Frank
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  #87  
Old 05-06-2016, 02:35 PM
Columbo Columbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monty View Post
You seriously need my book Columbo.

Beat constables walked their beats at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 mph, depending on which shift they were on. The would meet with their section sergeants, at an agreed location, at set times during their beat. This to provide an update for the sergeant.

Sergeants would also do spot checks, to ensure the constable is where he should be. However, if a constable can provide a valid reason, such as making an arrest, dealing with a disturbance, or even on a tea break (yes, that was permitted) for not being where he should be, then he would be excused.

As for knocking up, it was a carry on from the old days of The Watch. It was permitted, only if it didn't impact on the beat constables primary duties, and with consent.

Monty
I'm looking for it. Amazon is out in the usa. I'll be a customer though

Columbo
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  #88  
Old 04-28-2017, 01:25 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
Hi Monty

Just taking some guy down to the station would knock a huge hole in a beat, wouldn't it? You can't make a reluctant bloke walk at regulation speed.

Robert, what an interesting observation .

How about this then....................

What if PC Neil's beat, WASN'T his beat at all. What if he was on "Reserve", that night and had only been deployed to this beat, following the original officer covering that beat arriving at the station with a prisoner and then Neil being assigned to cover the beat whilst the original officer booked his prisoner in with the custody sergeant. That would certainly leave a large gap in the beat, more than enough time for Jack to do his work at a leisurely pace (perhaps Jack was even aware that the beat bobby proper was going to be committed for a while) and took the opportunity............

Further add to this that perhaps Neil hadn't done this beat before so didn't follow it exactly to form, this again might make gaps. Especially if he didn't know he was doing the beat incorrectly.
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  #89  
Old 04-28-2017, 01:30 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
A Section Sergeant kept an eye on the men who conducted beats in his section, in this case Sgt Kirby.

He would patrol his section, and meet up with the PCs at set times and locations. However, he would also do spot checks, ensuring the PC was where he should be, and not in the Pub.



Monty
:y

Adding again to my above theory. What if Sgt KIRBY had also become involved in our unknown bobbies arrest, accompanies him to the station with the prisoner. Obtains Neil and returns back to the patrol area. Tell's Neil where he should be covering and leaves him to it, after all there would have been several other bobbies on patrol in the surrounding area, what would have been needed checking on.
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  #90  
Old 04-28-2017, 01:45 AM
The Station Cat The Station Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by Simon Wood View Post
Hi David,

Your attachment delineates the boundaries of J Division.

FYI, PC Neil's beat included Winthrop Street.

Regards,

Simon

In all seriousness, with the absence of any existing beat maps.

I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).
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