Who was Jack's first murder poll!

[Harry D]

Hello, Abby.

Let alone all the other similiarities-The mere fact that Tabram was found on her back, legs spread and had her skirt pushed up like the other ripper victims should seal it for you. And she DID have had stab wounds to the "private" parts.

As I said before, most of the 'similarities' with Tabram are largely circumstantial: she was a prostitute, she died at night, she was killed with a knife, even the posing of the body, these are not unique Ripper traits. This is the kind of occupational hazard that comes from working in a violent neighbourhood.

So if Tabram wasn't a stepping stone in the rippers evolution, how else did he hone his technique before Nichols?? Ive never understood that argument.

I'm not seeing an evolution, Abby. This was a complete shift in focus from someone who stabbed his first victim no less than *39* times! At what point did he realize that the stabbing wasn't doing it for him?

Am I suggesting that Nichols was the Ripper's first kill? Maybe? I wouldn't profess to know either way. However, I'll stop short of accepting Tabram into the canon just because it's convenient. There's theorists who propose that the Ripper was part of the gang that attacked Emma Smith, and that's where he got his taste for murder. It's a nice idea, to paint this 'evolution of Ripper' but it's complete conjecture. How far do we want to keep regressing? All I will say is that the killer's signature still wasn't fully formed after Nichols, as he hadn't begun taking internal organs as trophies but we could see that was his focus.

And I believe that of the cases you listed that Millwood, the torso and smith could have been ripper victims (in that order of likelihood.

That still leaves quite a few murders to reckon with.

don't know who ward was. Farmer was probably a scammer.

Farmer probably was a scammer, I meant Ada Wilson.

On the 15th Sept 1888 an unnamed prostitute claimed that a man tried to trip her to the ground and slash her throat but she raised her arms to defend herself. Susan Ward is the only patient admitted to hospital with these types of injuries at this time, therefore it's just assumed this was the victim's identity.

[hanway3]

Thanks for those that answered my query about how long before you are allowed to vote on the polls.
If it is 10, that makes sense, and I will hope to be able to do so soon.
I asked this because I wanted to vote for Martha Tabram too. As seems do the majority.
Hope to be more active on this site soon. You all seem so knowledgeable, whichever theory you favour, and although interested for over 40 years on these murders, I am still thinking about something original- or sensational- to add.

[sdreid]

Paris is like Pinchin, in that, effort was actually made to ensure that the body was found.

[Guest]

I'm inclined to think his first victim is not named here.

I am however open to the suggestion of Martha Tabram. Less inclined to consider Emma Smith, but perhaps Annie Milwood.

So if I was able to vote I would choose 'another'. I have found the Tabram discussion very interesting though, and it has given me quite a bit to think about!

[Rosella]

Welcome, Anemolihp! You'll soon be able to vote. I too remain on the fence about whether Martha was a victim of Jack's.

[sdreid]

Tabram is a little over 50% here but below 50% by a more significant number in the same poll over on Forums. That's a newer poll so I wonder if that's the reason.

[Harry D]

Tabram is a little over 50% here but below 50% by a more significant number in the same poll over on Forums. That's a newer poll so I wonder if that's the reason.

They have more sense over there?

[sdreid]

They have more sense over there?

Funny!

[Dr. John Watson]

Tabram is a little over 50% here but below 50% by a more significant number in the same poll over on Forums. That's a newer poll so I wonder if that's the reason.

It shows that most Casebook researchers don't accept the "canonical five," i.e. Macnaghten line-up, which lists Nichols as the first victim. The time of attack (late night), the open and public murder site (first floor landing of an occupied tenement), the age and occupation of the victim (middle-aged prostitute), type and location of wounds (slashing of abdomen), use of a blade as the murder weapon (knife), and the sheer audacity of an attacker who kills for the sake of killing (known characteristic of JTR) all point toward Martha Tabrum as Jack's first kill - an opinion shared by Insp. Abberline and Robert Anderson incidently.

John

[Harry D]

The time of attack (late night)

I'd imagine most attacks on prostitutes would happen at night, no? Sort of comes with the territory.

the open and public murder site (first floor landing of an occupied tenement)

Other women were attacked and murdered in public locations (Smith, McKenzie, Mylett, Coles etc.) This is not unique to the Ripper murders.

the age and occupation of the victim (middle-aged prostitute)

Many of the women in that part of town were middle-aged vagrants who didn't have two shillings to rub together and resorted to prostitution. It's not as if JTR deliberately targeted women of a certain age, because we have Mary Kelly.

type and location of wounds (slashing of abdomen)

Little slashing, a whole lot of stabbing. Tabram's murderer focused on the upper body, whereas JTR directed his attacks on the lower abdomen and genital-area.

use of a blade as the murder weapon (knife)

As opposed to a rubber chicken?

and the sheer audacity of an attacker who kills for the sake of killing (known characteristic of JTR)

You presume to know the motive for Tabram's killer? Or JTR for that matter?

[Dr. John Watson]

. . . with a rubber chicken?

Harry D, I presume your point is that some knife-wielding killer other than JTR could have murdered Tabram. That possibility exists, of course, and you have stated the obvious simply and succinctly and, considering the "rubber chicken" comment, perhaps a bit sophomoric. I have to say your comments reminded me of an opponent in a high school debate whose entire rebuttal to each of my points was to state, with deep conviction, "Not necessarily."

John

[Harry D]

Harry D, I presume your point is that some knife-wielding killer other than JTR could have murdered Tabram. That possibility exists, of course, and you have stated the obvious simply and succinctly and, considering the "rubber chicken" comment, perhaps a bit sophomoric. I have to say your comments reminded me of an opponent in a high school debate whose entire rebuttal to each of my points was to state, with deep conviction, "Not necessarily."

Yes, that is my point exactly. Whitechapel was not short of dodgy characters. Hell, there was a future serial killer already living there when the murders took place. That said, even in a rough neighbourhood like that, there seems to have been something in the water in 1888 because we have a whole host of women either killed or assaulted with knives that year. They can't have all been carried out by the same man. When looking at Tabram as a potential JTR victim, we need to look past the circumstantial evidence (time, place, occupation) and examine the MO & post-mortem signature. They're the things that tell us about her killer. She was stabbed 39 times in an uncontrollable frenzy, with most of her injuries inflicted in the upper body rather than the lower abdomen like the C5. Different signature, different focus, different killer.

[FrankO]

The mere fact that Tabram was found on her back, legs spread and had her skirt pushed up like the other ripper victims should seal it for you. And she DID have had stab wounds to the "private" parts.

Agreed all around, Abby. This woman wasn’t just stabbed 39 times and left. Whoever killed her was also morbidly interested in what was under her skirts, as is accentuated by the 3-inch cut on her genital area. This can hardly be explained away as being part of a frenzy.

Now, I’m not saying that this means Tabram was killed by the Ripper, but it does mean that she can’t be blown out of the frame for being a Ripper victim quite as easily as some suggest.

All the best,
Frank

[Sleuth1888]

I believe that the Smith and Tabram murders were connected, most probably by the same group of people, or person.

But taken objectively, there is some doubt in my mind as to whether the Smith/Tabram killer(s) can be linked to the definitive JTR victims.

There is absolutely nothing to say that the murderer of Smith & Tabram went on to kill the canonical victims. There is only Wescott's argument that Pearly Poll knew something about the murder of Tabram and potentially was complicit in protecting the murderer. However there is always the possibility that another killer emerged after Tabram's death and went on to become Jack the Ripper.

[Pandora]

Who do you think was JtR's first kill?

My money is on Annie Millwood, as Jack's failed first attempt. I suspect the fact she survived the attack may have scared him enough, that he did not attempt another murder until almost 6 months later, when he killed Martha Tabram.

But I think he’d have learnt what went wrong from his first attack, having left Annie Millwood both alive, and probably having gotten quite a good look at him, so he changed the time of his attack to night, where he was likely to be more invisible.

And then learning again, after no doubt Martha putting up enough of a struggle that the attack could have been heard (as far as he knew), as well as getting fairly well covered in blood spray, he decided to strangle his 3rd victim first, Polly Nichols, thus committing a relatively quiet murder, and not sustaining too much blood splatter or spray once he got to work on her. This method working for him, he continued with it, when he killed Annie Chapman, and Catherine Eddowes. I’m as yet undecided about Stride, whether or not she was a JtR victim, and Kelly, who I think could definitely have been – but if so, he would have found it very hard to stop after getting away with that.