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Vetting Hutchinson

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  • #16
    Originally posted by RockySullivan View Post
    How did hutch not set off alarms to the police? He exhibited predatory behavior stalking Mary Kelly for nearly an hour, placed himself at the crime scene, would have scene Kelly open the door through the window and he was customer of Kelly's who she solicited the night of her murder. Not to mention he placed himself at the crime scene. You'd think this might've caught the eye of atleast SOMEONE...if not the police than someone who read Hutch's account in the press. If the police didn't find this suspicious then who where they looking for? Not the ripper apparently because Hutch atleast shows he stalking Kelly at the crime scene and he's a john whose known to her.
    Rocky.
    The police account, and the press account, both only scratch the surface.
    Hutchinson was interrogated by Abberline and sadly the paperwork which resulted from this interrogation has not survived.
    What Hutchinson told Abberline will have been considerably more detailed than what he told the press, or indeed what was related in his voluntary statement.

    Regardless of the fact we may ask a hundred questions we can readily expect Abberline would have asked just as many. And, Hutchinson would not have been set free until they were all answered to Abberline's satisfaction.

    The fact 'we' cannot answer those questions does not mean Hutchinson should be guilty of anything.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • #17
      Hi Abby Normal,

      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
      Hi Natasha
      Highly doubtful. Blotchy was seen going in with Mary around 11ish. Hutch's vigil was from approx. 2:15 to 3:00. The descriptions don't match-blotchy was very distinctive looking and I am sure abberline or someone would have noted the similarity if they were the same. Also, if hutch was Blotchy why would he stand around outside for almost an hour after already being inside with Mary.
      Remember this was his story, if he was the ripper, he may have made up some story. As for Sarah Lewis well I don't think she is reliable as she embellished her story to the press. Perhaps she was somehow involved if not paid.

      Hutchinson claims he left at the strike of 3, then Cox comes along. How comes she doesn't see Hutchinson?

      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
      IMHO I think Blotchy is the most viable candidate for the ripper with hutch being a close second.
      The man Hutchinson claims to have seen with Kelly, with the small parcel, I think perhaps had a fish & chip supper in that parcel. That explains the contents of MJK's stomach.
      If that's true, then I don't think the man Hutch' saw was the ripper. The ripper, I feel, is a blitz style attacker, I don't believe he would wait patiently while Kelly ate, and then kill her.

      Not enough is known about Hutchinson, and that strikes me as strange. Abberline, is also a mystery IMO.

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Natasha,

        To answer your question regarding Hutchinson being seen , its possible that Hutchinson relied on Sarah Lewis's sighting of Wideawake Hat man to validate his own statement. Or that she did see Hutchinson wearing that Hat.

        Its clear she saw someone watching the courtyard, Hutchinson or not, that fellow is to my eye the most likely murderer, or almost certainly an accomplice.

        Which is why its strange for Hutchinson to want to assume that mans role that night....even with his concern for Mary remarks. Maybe if he was really concerned he wouldn't have waited 4 full days to come forward, until after the Inquest prematurely ended...but we have his word on it, so I guess that means it must be true....

        Cheers
        Michael Richards

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          Hi Natasha,

          To answer your question regarding Hutchinson being seen , its possible that Hutchinson relied on Sarah Lewis's sighting of Wideawake Hat man to validate his own statement. Or that she did see Hutchinson wearing that Hat.

          Its clear she saw someone watching the courtyard, Hutchinson or not, that fellow is to my eye the most likely murderer, or almost certainly an accomplice.

          Which is why its strange for Hutchinson to want to assume that mans role that night....even with his concern for Mary remarks. Maybe if he was really concerned he wouldn't have waited 4 full days to come forward, until after the Inquest prematurely ended...but we have his word on it, so I guess that means it must be true....

          Cheers
          Hi Michael

          I guess that's another plausible idea. It would make sense that someone would wait outside as a look out, if they were an accomplice to murder.

          Abberline annoys me, what was he hiding?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Natasha View Post

            Hutchinson claims he left at the strike of 3, then Cox comes along. How comes she doesn't see Hutchinson?
            Hi Natasha.
            If you follow the testimony of Mary Cox you will see she was never asked if there was anyone standing in Dorset St., that issue never arose.

            The man Hutchinson claims to have seen with Kelly, with the small parcel, I think perhaps had a fish & chip supper in that parcel. That explains the contents of MJK's stomach.
            If that's true, then I don't think the man Hutch' saw was the ripper. The ripper, I feel, is a blitz style attacker, I don't believe he would wait patiently while Kelly ate, and then kill her.
            Ok, then if I follow your line of reasoning you are saying Mary Kelly was murdered after Hutchinson left Dorset St., and this Astrachan was not her killer?
            Incidentally, the parcel carried by Astrachan was imitation leather, not what you would expect fish and chips to be wrapped up in perhaps you are confusing that parcel with the newspaper parcel carried by PC Smith's suspect in Berner St.?
            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Jon

              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              Hi Natasha.
              If you follow the testimony of Mary Cox you will see she was never asked if there was anyone standing in Dorset St., that issue never arose.
              Even if the question never arose, would it not be common sense to mention anyone seen standing around? After all a murder did happen. Would Cox not feel scared seeing as a murder had took place not too far from were she lived? Mentioning the man, if seen, would be an important piece of info.

              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              Ok, then if I follow your line of reasoning you are saying Mary Kelly was murdered after Hutchinson left Dorset St., and this Astrachan was not her killer?
              Incidentally, the parcel carried by Astrachan was imitation leather, not what you would expect fish and chips to be wrapped up in perhaps you are confusing that parcel with the one carried by PC Smith's suspect in Berner St.?
              I'm half asleep and reciting from memory, not very well by the looks of it

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Natasha View Post

                Even if the question never arose, would it not be common sense to mention anyone seen standing around? After all a murder did happen. Would Cox not feel scared seeing as a murder had took place not too far from were she lived? Mentioning the man, if seen, would be an important piece of info.
                Hi Natasha.
                Generally, after a witness is sworn, they respond to specific questions. The witness is not in a position to provide a comprehensive story of who she saw, and where, and what she said to someone, or heard people talking about, or how many suspicious person's she saw.

                Cox was asked some very pointed questions, and she gave answers to those questions. That is all she is there to do.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                  Hi Natasha.
                  Generally, after a witness is sworn, they respond to specific questions. The witness is not in a position to provide a comprehensive story of who she saw, and where, and what she said to someone, or heard people talking about, or how many suspicious person's she saw.

                  Cox was asked some very pointed questions, and she gave answers to those questions. That is all she is there to do.
                  Hi Jon

                  She didn't say anything to anyone, not even the press. I believe she didn't see anyone standing around at 3.00.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I thought 'American cloth' was waxed oilcloth, very popular in Victorian times. Is it classed as imitation leather?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                      To answer your question regarding Hutchinson being seen , its possible that Hutchinson relied on Sarah Lewis's sighting of Wideawake Hat man to validate his own statement. Or that she did see Hutchinson wearing that Hat.

                      Its clear she saw someone watching the courtyard, Hutchinson or not, that fellow is to my eye the most likely murderer, or almost certainly an accomplice.

                      Cheers
                      Of course it isnīt clear that she saw somebody watching the courtyard! Who corroborates it, Michael? Nobody!

                      It is clear that she SAID that she saw somebody there, looking up the court. But she could have made it up, just like many of the women of the court made up stories about the "murder" cry.

                      Donīt get me wrong, I am not saying that she must have made it up. But neither must she have seen a man there.

                      The best,
                      Fisherman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                        Of course it isnīt clear that she saw somebody watching the courtyard! Who corroborates it, Michael? Nobody!

                        It is clear that she SAID that she saw somebody there, looking up the court. But she could have made it up, just like many of the women of the court made up stories about the "murder" cry.

                        Donīt get me wrong, I am not saying that she must have made it up. But neither must she have seen a man there.

                        The best,
                        Fisherman
                        hutch himself corroborates it fish. you know that.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Natasha View Post
                          Hi Jon

                          She didn't say anything to anyone, not even the press. I believe she didn't see anyone standing around at 3.00.
                          Hi Natasha.
                          Apart from the fact that Kelly was heard by another witness to be singing after 12:30, for an unspecified period of time, nothing else about what Mary Cox claimed was corroborated by police, and the fact Mrs Prater did not see her pass up the passage after 1:00 a.m. also raises questions about the 'times' she gave.
                          I don't doubt her story was true, but I question the 'times' she gave in her testimony.

                          Incidentally, the Times, Morning Advertiser, Scotsman, Standard & Lloyds all reported that Cox returned at "3:10", not 3:00. Daily News says "about three", so we may be placing too much reliance on "3:00" being an accurate time, it may not have been exactly 3:00.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Rosella View Post
                            I thought 'American cloth' was waxed oilcloth, very popular in Victorian times. Is it classed as imitation leather?
                            Yes Rosella it was, and it was fashionable to emboss the oil cloth with an imitation leather pattern so it looked like leather.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              My guess is one of the following (mutually contradictory) positions with respect to Hutch:

                              1) He was a police shill on the payroll and invented A-Man to justify his keep. This would explain why Abberline put any stock in his tale when the papers, usually far worse than the police, dismissed him as a witness - along with his story, which surely would have moved copy had they run with if.

                              2) A-Man was real, Hutchinson saw him - and had intended to rob the man. This would explain his loitering in the first.

                              He does not need to have been the Ripper to have been a mountebank.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Or Hutch could have been hoping for a freebie in Mary Kelly's nice warm bed after her client had gone, and was left disappointed.

                                Comment

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