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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Annie Chapman

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  #61  
Old 09-17-2016, 08:58 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
Hi Michael

To be fair to Dr Phillips, he did state that the coolness of the day and blood loss may hasten cooling and thus exaggerate time since death, but he doesn't seem to have considered starting temperature. If Annie was mildly hypothermic, by just 1C say, that would easily move the estimate to correlate with Cadosche and Long

Paul
Actually Paul we run into the same kind of trouble we run into in the Mitre Square case, IF the lady Lawende saw at 1:35ma with Sailor Man was indeed Kate. The problem is with the amount of time remaining to kill and mutilate after the last sighting to the time of discovery.

IF Cadosche heard Annie and her Killer at approx. 5:15, which seems most plausible, then Long did not see Annie at 5:30, because she is found mutilated and dead at 5:45 by Davis. Its not only the cooling time that needs to be considered, its the amount of time the killer needed to kill and mutilate.

Cheers
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  #62  
Old 09-17-2016, 09:51 AM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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The timings and clock accuracy is a recurring theme unfortunately. Long set her time by the Truman Brewery clock chime, Cadosche by the time after he'd left the house, neither exact when we're talking about minutes. The medical opinion of how long is based on a deliberate surgical procedure, the actual killer would have been quicker as he didn't care about protecting life (obviously). There was an interesting article concerning inaccuracy of temperature decay due to variation in eg surrounding temperature from the 1950s, the precursors of which Dr Phillips certainly seemed aware

Paul
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  #63  
Old 11-12-2016, 07:06 PM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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You simpletons! Time, like gravity, is a social construct!

This is a historical fact. Not a fact, but a historical fact.

Natural science teaches us this.

Therefore both witnesses were right. They were both right about the time. It was time itself that got things wrong.

But only because there were humans there to witness it. Otherwise no-one would've known.

Pierre, you began as an irritation. You are rapidly becoming a joke.
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  #64  
Old 11-12-2016, 07:27 PM
Henry Flower Henry Flower is offline
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Am I the only one nearly hysterical with laughter at the fact that Pierre, of all people, has started a thread simply called....

"Specific"

???

The irony is so thick you could choke on it.
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  #65  
Old 11-12-2016, 07:46 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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Patsy Cline's Birthday. 8th September. Sign of Virgo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkin%27_After_Midnight
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  #66  
Old 11-13-2016, 10:32 AM
The Good Michael The Good Michael is offline
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You simpletons! Time, like gravity, is a social construct!
Of course this is true and is why so many people are correct, but information contradicts. It isn't just times. It's all details. This is why a systematic refutation of every little thing with regards to a "suspect" is problematic. Suspects need to be looked at in general sense rather than detailed to determine merit. After general things are satisfied, statements that contradict are just a wash and exact time, within reason, holds no meaning. Details are to be found in medical records and such, or not at all.

Mike
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  #67  
Old 11-13-2016, 11:50 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjab3112 View Post
The timings and clock accuracy is a recurring theme unfortunately. Long set her time by the Truman Brewery clock chime, Cadosche by the time after he'd left the house, neither exact when we're talking about minutes. The medical opinion of how long is based on a deliberate surgical procedure, the actual killer would have been quicker as he didn't care about protecting life (obviously). There was an interesting article concerning inaccuracy of temperature decay due to variation in eg surrounding temperature from the 1950s, the precursors of which Dr Phillips certainly seemed aware

Paul
Its not just the timings....its the fact that we have evidence that most probably Annie and someone were in the yard at around 5:15am, its not conceivable that these were different people and the killer and Annie arrive after Longs sighting, for one..where did the couple at 5:15 go, and for another, Annie is found just after 5:45...from someone who looked at a clock before the discovery. Long says she was certain about the time she saw Annie...which has Annie and her killer not even in the yard yet and the discovery of her cooling greatly mutilated remains coming just 15 minutes after that 5:30 sighting against the shutters of 29 Hanbury.

For me this is easy if you believe Cadosche...whom I personally have no reason to doubt. It leaves 1/2 an hour to do all he does...which fits nicely with Phillips contention that even he could not have done it all (the mutilations) in under 15 minutes.
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  #68  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:47 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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Hi Michael

Personally I agree that Cadosche was telling the truth. Long probably was too though. We are used to iPhone centralised time so everyone is accurate to the minute. If you are reliant on public clocks (or even time sellers) then that creates error. If one were to put two people in an environment with no external reference point they would almost certainly estimate the passage of time differently. All over this forum we see arguments to the minute (which is highly questionable when even a modern automatic watch has a 30 second weekly variance). The facts (historical but not in the Pierre sense) are that at some time after five and before six Annie was killed. One witness states at 0515 he heard a noise of a weight as though a body fell against the fence. The second claims at 0530 they witnessed the deceased outside the place of death. Reverse those timings and there is no controversy surely, which was the point I was trying to make. My apologies for confusion.

Best wishes

Paul

Last edited by kjab3112 : 11-15-2016 at 05:49 PM.
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