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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Alice Mackenzie

View Poll Results: McKenzie - Ripper victim or not?
YES 23 41.82%
NO 18 32.73%
UNDECIDED 14 25.45%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 10-26-2015, 11:04 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Hanway
I was undecided until recently but now I am pretty much convinced she was:

same victimology
same location
same time frame-night
unsolved
killed with knife
throat cut
left carteroid artery severed
two cuts to neck
neck cut while lying on ground
abdomen/pelvic/ privates targeted and cut(ripped)
High level (munroe)police at the time believed she was a ripper victim
Dr believed she was a ripper victim
Found lying on back
And the clincher for me-found with skirt pushed up-like the others, including Tabram.

She was a ripper victim.
Look at the cuts on her abdomen compared to Polly Nichols. They are almost identical except the number of them. Same two directions. Horizontal and vertical! Imagine that.
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  #52  
Old 12-02-2015, 09:51 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Interesting that people think that McKenzie was more likely a Ripper victim than Ellen Bury. Even though Ellen Bury's abdominal mutilations were deeper and her face had been disfigured (like Eddowes, Kelly). Does it all come down to the cut throat?
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  #53  
Old 12-02-2015, 09:54 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Interesting that people think that McKenzie was more likely a Ripper victim than Ellen Bury. Even though Ellen Bury's abdominal mutilations were deeper and her face had been disfigured (like Eddowes, Kelly). Does it all come down to the cut throat?
For me Harry there needs to be three components....double cut throat, legs splayed, abdominal/pelvic mutilations.
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  #54  
Old 12-02-2015, 09:55 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
For me Harry there needs to be three components....double cut throat, legs splayed, abdominal/pelvic mutilations.
McKenzie had all three components, Mike.
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  #55  
Old 12-02-2015, 10:12 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Guy View Post
McKenzie had all three components, Mike.
I realize that Jon, I was addressing the comparison with Bury. I personally believe that whomever killed Kate Eddowes possibly killed Alice. I believe the person who killed Polly and Annie was off the streets after those first 2 murders.
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  #56  
Old 12-03-2015, 02:58 AM
Jon Guy Jon Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I realize that Jon, I was addressing the comparison with Bury. I personally believe that whomever killed Kate Eddowes possibly killed Alice. I believe the person who killed Polly and Annie was off the streets after those first 2 murders.
Aha, I thought that with those credentials she might have made your canon, Mike.
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  #57  
Old 11-14-2016, 02:06 AM
Charles Daniels Charles Daniels is offline
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The details I have read about the case make me struggle NOT to include her as a ripper victim.

The main reason I can see for excluding her is if the person reading the details has a specific suspect in mind whom is not compatible (for one example Druitt, but there are lots of suspects who could not be responsible for Alice)

The fact that she happens a bit later, well, she happens a bit later.
But what happens to her is extremely compelling to include her in the series.

So, what have I missed?

Can anyone talk me out of linking Alice McKenzie to the Whitechapel Murder series?
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  #58  
Old 08-19-2017, 11:24 AM
curious curious is offline
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Default No Vote -- Fingernail marks

After reading through Information on Alice McKenzie and pondering it, I have arrived at a "no" it's not likely she was a victim of the man we call Jack the Ripper.


My no is based on Dr. George Bagster Phillips' inquest testimony on Day 3, Wednesday, August 14th, 1889:

There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.

[Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.

FINGERNAIL MARKS?

anyone?

curious
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  #59  
Old 08-19-2017, 02:56 PM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curious View Post
After reading through Information on Alice McKenzie and pondering it, I have arrived at a "no" it's not likely she was a victim of the man we call Jack the Ripper.


My no is based on Dr. George Bagster Phillips' inquest testimony on Day 3, Wednesday, August 14th, 1889:

There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.

[Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.

FINGERNAIL MARKS?

anyone?

curious
Hi curious,

The fingernail marks were, of course, from a hand being placed on her abdomen. Not sure if you're thinking the fingernail marks were the actual cuts to the abdomen. They were not.

Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part. Wound in abdomen but abdominal cavity not opened. Scoring the right side of abdomen are seven dermal marks tailing inwards to the major wound, and seven similar scorings between this wound and the pubis, one distinctly becoming deeper over the pubis.

There was also a small cut over the mons veneris.

To me, these wounds are of a "doodling" nature, comparable to what the killer of Eddowes did to her face and eyelids. The wounds to Alice's abdomen were all done post mortem and targeted the abdomen and genital area. Her skirt was thrown up to her chin as in other cases. Although the neck wound appears to be different than the other victims, it is similar in that there were two cuts to the throat as in other cases.
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  #60  
Old 08-19-2017, 04:55 PM
curious curious is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Hi curious,

The fingernail marks were, of course, from a hand being placed on her abdomen. Not sure if you're thinking the fingernail marks were the actual cuts to the abdomen. They were not.

Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part. Wound in abdomen but abdominal cavity not opened. Scoring the right side of abdomen are seven dermal marks tailing inwards to the major wound, and seven similar scorings between this wound and the pubis, one distinctly becoming deeper over the pubis.

There was also a small cut over the mons veneris.

To me, these wounds are of a "doodling" nature, comparable to what the killer of Eddowes did to her face and eyelids. The wounds to Alice's abdomen were all done post mortem and targeted the abdomen and genital area. Her skirt was thrown up to her chin as in other cases. Although the neck wound appears to be different than the other victims, it is similar in that there were two cuts to the throat as in other cases.
Hello, Jerry,
Thanks for replying.

Would you please tell me where you found that information?

Thanks, again,

curious
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