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  • #76
    Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
    Different book, same author (sort of) holds that title.
    "Police Code 1889"
    Maybe.
    G U T

    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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    • #77
      I was discussing Polly the other day and the question of what she was actually doing in the godforsaken grimy spot where she was killed came up.

      Ellen Holland was the last person we know of to see her alive. Mary was at that time alone and slowly meandering down Whitechapel Rd in the direction of Bucks Row.
      Now, one can understand her hanging about Whitechapel Rd in order to catch a punter (well lighted, reasonably busy I suppose) but why take a customer to a short dark street consisting mainly of cottages and a board school? Was Browns Yard sometimes carelessly left open at night and therefore a good place to conduct business?

      Or had Polly had reasonable pickings among the shift workers of nearby slaughterhouses before and decided to try her luck around there, happening to find Jack on the way back to the Whitechapel Road. Was there a pub near to Bucks Row where she could have been drinking, having found a client, and Jack picked her up there? Bucks Row just seems an odd spot for a rendezvous, that's all!

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      • #78
        So does anyone think Neil would have a pocket watch? was it uncommon for police not to have one?

        Columbo

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Columbo View Post
          So does anyone think Neil would have a pocket watch? was it uncommon for police not to have one?

          Columbo
          Probably not, but he'd have also known, almost to the second (well minute anyway) where he was supposed to be at any given time on his beat, he would have had a set time to complete his beat.
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by GUT View Post
            Probably not, but he'd have also known, almost to the second (well minute anyway) where he was supposed to be at any given time on his beat, he would have had a set time to complete his beat.
            I forgot where I read this but Monty can probably verify it. The Bobbies on the beat had to adhere to a strict schedule. If anything happened on their beat and they weren't were they were supposed to be time wise they caught a lot of crap from their superiors. So I was trying to figure out if it was habit with the help of community clocks that was the most common way to judge time.

            Columbo

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Columbo View Post
              I forgot where I read this but Monty can probably verify it. The Bobbies on the beat had to adhere to a strict schedule. If anything happened on their beat and they weren't were they were supposed to be time wise they caught a lot of crap from their superiors. So I was trying to figure out if it was habit with the help of community clocks that was the most common way to judge time.

              Columbo
              Basically yes.

              They were trained to walk at a fairly precise speed so if they started their beet at 10:00 they knew they'd be back at the start at 10:15, 10:30 etc.

              I guess they'd also check when the passed public clocks, knew the clock at x church was 3 minutes into the beat, so 10:03, 10:18 etc and at Y building 12 minutes into the beat so same etc.

              I understand that a knock up was for "When you pass my place on your 4:15 lap" etc.
              G U T

              There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by GUT View Post
                Basically yes.

                They were trained to walk at a fairly precise speed so if they started their beet at 10:00 they knew they'd be back at the start at 10:15, 10:30 etc.

                I guess they'd also check when the passed public clocks, knew the clock at x church was 3 minutes into the beat, so 10:03, 10:18 etc and at Y building 12 minutes into the beat so same etc.

                I understand that a knock up was for "When you pass my place on your 4:15 lap" etc.
                Excellent. That helps a lot. Thanks.

                Columbo

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by GUT View Post
                  Now earlier it was rated top ten or even top two in ripper books, but I will tell you this, it is NUMBER ONE in police procedure books.
                  Are you looking for a cut also? ;-)

                  Monty
                  Monty

                  https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                  Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    You seriously need my book Columbo.

                    Beat constables walked their beats at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 mph, depending on which shift they were on. The would meet with their section sergeants, at an agreed location, at set times during their beat. This to provide an update for the sergeant.

                    Sergeants would also do spot checks, to ensure the constable is where he should be. However, if a constable can provide a valid reason, such as making an arrest, dealing with a disturbance, or even on a tea break (yes, that was permitted) for not being where he should be, then he would be excused.

                    As for knocking up, it was a carry on from the old days of The Watch. It was permitted, only if it didn't impact on the beat constables primary duties, and with consent.

                    Monty
                    Monty

                    https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                    Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                    http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Monty View Post
                      Are you looking for a cut also? ;-)

                      Monty
                      Nope, just believe in credit where it's due, if I see an error in the next one I'll be among the first to savage it.
                      G U T

                      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                        Well I was trying to make everything fit with his statement and what we (think we) know of his beat. So 'up Baker's Row' isn't inconsistent, if he turned into White's Row, although it's true that it's not as far 'up' as Thomas Street.
                        Whether he entered Buck’s Row from the north or south part of Thomas Street is perhaps not so important; the important thing is that both possibilities would explain why Neil didn’t see the carmen and vice versa, while the chance would be much smaller if he would have entered it directly from Baker's Row.
                        PC Neil said he said he "went across", which I took the mean across the intervening ground, rather than the street. Certainly his testimony seems to put him on the South side;
                        You’re right, Joshua, he was walking on the south side, it’s only the Lloyd’s Weekly News of 2 September that has him walking on the north side.

                        Best,
                        Frank
                        "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                        Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Monty View Post
                          You seriously need my book Columbo.

                          Beat constables walked their beats at 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 mph, depending on which shift they were on. The would meet with their section sergeants, at an agreed location, at set times during their beat. This to provide an update for the sergeant.

                          Sergeants would also do spot checks, to ensure the constable is where he should be. However, if a constable can provide a valid reason, such as making an arrest, dealing with a disturbance, or even on a tea break (yes, that was permitted) for not being where he should be, then he would be excused.

                          As for knocking up, it was a carry on from the old days of The Watch. It was permitted, only if it didn't impact on the beat constables primary duties, and with consent.

                          Monty
                          I'm looking for it. Amazon is out in the usa. I'll be a customer though

                          Columbo

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Robert View Post
                            Hi Monty

                            Just taking some guy down to the station would knock a huge hole in a beat, wouldn't it? You can't make a reluctant bloke walk at regulation speed.

                            Robert, what an interesting observation .

                            How about this then....................

                            What if PC Neil's beat, WASN'T his beat at all. What if he was on "Reserve", that night and had only been deployed to this beat, following the original officer covering that beat arriving at the station with a prisoner and then Neil being assigned to cover the beat whilst the original officer booked his prisoner in with the custody sergeant. That would certainly leave a large gap in the beat, more than enough time for Jack to do his work at a leisurely pace (perhaps Jack was even aware that the beat bobby proper was going to be committed for a while) and took the opportunity............

                            Further add to this that perhaps Neil hadn't done this beat before so didn't follow it exactly to form, this again might make gaps. Especially if he didn't know he was doing the beat incorrectly.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Monty View Post
                              A Section Sergeant kept an eye on the men who conducted beats in his section, in this case Sgt Kirby.

                              He would patrol his section, and meet up with the PCs at set times and locations. However, he would also do spot checks, ensuring the PC was where he should be, and not in the Pub.



                              Monty
                              :y

                              Adding again to my above theory. What if Sgt KIRBY had also become involved in our unknown bobbies arrest, accompanies him to the station with the prisoner. Obtains Neil and returns back to the patrol area. Tell's Neil where he should be covering and leaves him to it, after all there would have been several other bobbies on patrol in the surrounding area, what would have been needed checking on.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                                Hi David,

                                Your attachment delineates the boundaries of J Division.

                                FYI, PC Neil's beat included Winthrop Street.

                                Regards,

                                Simon

                                In all seriousness, with the absence of any existing beat maps.

                                I suspect that Bethnal Green Station, would have been responsable for roughly this area. As far North as Hackney Road, as fair east as Collingwood Road, as far south as Durwood Street and as far west as the boundary with H division.

                                The question is how many bobbies did they have covering this area. The 1881 & 1891 censuses list 13 officers as resident in the station, perhaps the same again in the surrounding community. These would have been split over 3, 8 hour shifts. So lets say roughly 10 bobbies and perhaps one Sgt on the beat, all the beats would interconnect if not overlap. I suspect that this wasn't enough to cover the area satisfactorily. It is well documented by several witnesses that they rarely saw an officer (the night watchmen on Bucks Row itself being one example).

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