Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Wickerman 1 hour and 26 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by MysterySinger 1 hour and 27 minutes ago.
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Wickerman 2 hours ago.
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - by Abby Normal 3 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Hutchinson, George: Possible reason for Hutch coming forward - (17 posts)
Doctors and Coroners: Baxter's influence on Ripper lore - (11 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kosminski/Kaminsky - please debunk - (7 posts)
Kosminski, Aaron: My theory on Kosminski - (6 posts)
Shades of Whitechapel: Caught!? Long Island Serial Killer suspect - (3 posts)
Levy, Jacob: Jacob Levy - (2 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kosminski, Aaron

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #71  
Old 11-29-2016, 11:00 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15,865
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
To Fisherman

I can see what you mean, and that might be correct, but I think because of the reported comment by Swanson in 1895 -- about the Ripper likely being a deceased man -- that this was a solution with which he concurred.

On the other hand Swanson may have been wholly dependent on the opinion of his revered chief, Anderson, and he in turn was wholly dependent on the information supplied by his immediate subordinate, Macnaghten -- who hated his conceited, pious boss.

The reason Anderson did not contact Colney Hatch, in 1895, was because "Kosminski" had [supposedly] been dead for nearly six years. In a private bit of revenge Macnaghten had misled Anderson, whom, being a repressed Victorian fundamentalist, pounced on the detail about "self-abuse".

Something else to consider is that George Sims knows in 1910 about the suspect contents of Macnaghten's filed report, and writes in his regular column about it -- and absolutely denies that any Jewish people assisted this suspect to evade justice. He even uses Anderson's phrase about "definitely ascertained facts" but that such an assertion by the retired chief goes beyond the facts.

The existence of this version of a Ripper report would not be referred to again until Robin Odell revealed the suspect's contents in the revised edition of his fine book in 1966 ("Jack the Ripper - In Fact and Fiction").

Therefore questioning the veracity of Anderson's solution is not just a modern examination. Major Smith denied the credibility of the solution at the time, as did Abberline -- and so did Macnaghten, by then Assistant Commissioner, via his literary proxy Sims.

Textual evidence that "Kosminski" emerged originally from Macnaghten is that the former first enters the extant record in the latter's 1894 report(s) and Mac's abbreviation to just the surname is exactly how Swanson will write the alleged killer's name in his copy of his boss' memoirs in 1910, or thereabouts.
Well, Jonathan, if nothing else, your post goes to show how multifaceted this errand is, and how many interpretations can be made. Whether Kosminski was a good suspect or not and whether there was a genuine belief in his guilt hinges on a good many things.

I take your comment on the 1895 statement by Swanson, but will add that the "likely" seems less aimed at the killer being deceased than his being the killer. The exact wording was, I believe, that Swanson "believed" the killer to be dead, but that amounts to the same: no certainty.

Plus, of course, as always - Aaron Kosminski was definitely not dead at this stage.

Around we go.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-29-2016 at 11:03 PM.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 11-30-2016, 02:23 AM
S.Brett S.Brett is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 319
Default

Hi Pat!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
S Brett, Thank you very much (How can one go wrong with Chris)
It appears that the family of Woolf Abrahams was not the only family branch that lived near Dutfields Yard. More than a half year ago there was a discussion on JTRForums and Chris Phillips wrote that it would have been possible that Israel Lubnowski was living 23 Batty Gardens (behind Dutfields Yard) at that time. This address comes from a record of the London Hospital. Marie Lobonoffski, most probably a daughter of Israel Lubnowski, was a patient there from April to May 1887. 1891 we find Israel Lubnowski, a Rabbi Minister (brother of Morris Lubnowski, the husband of Aaron Kozminski´s sister Matilda), 6 Yalford Street, the same street (34 Yalford Street) where Woolf Abrahams was living between 1889 and 1890, if not earlier. Perhaps both men, Woolf Abrahams and Israel Lubnowski, left their streets near Dutfields Yard after the Double Event when the police had arrested the man who dropped off the bloody shirts. Mrs. Kuer (Batty Street "Lodger") said the man who dropped off the clothes was a ladies tailor working for a West end house. This might have been Isaac Abrahams, the freemason. In October 1888, you know, there were press reports about a man, inmate of an East End Infirmary, who was shadowed. Other newspapers have reported about a who man was shadowed but did not leave his house anymore. Aaron Kozminski? In October 1888 no murder took place. I remember your great grandfather´s brother Henry Cox who stated:

"It is indeed very strange that as soon as this madman was put under observation, the mysterious crimes ceased"

Was this madman put under observation two times, after the Double Event and after the Kelly murder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy View Post
I have the impression that Swanson was just adding explanation to Andersons statements, but not giving his own point of view...
My impression is that Swanson was the first who received the information about Kosminski´s "death"! Lady Anderson (wife of Sir Robert Anderson) once remarked that the Ripper was interned in an asylum near Stone. His son Arthur Anderson, via his father, stated: the man was an alien from Eastern Europe, and believed that he had died in an asylum! It is hard to imagine that Anderson was not sure whether Kosminski died in Stone or Colney Hatch. It is possible that Anderson was telling certain people:

"he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Stone, Kent and I believe he died there"

Maybe Swanson had the idea to send his copy to Anderson, with all this remarks. Remarks like:

"he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and died shortly afterwards"

or:

"...because the suspect was also a Jew"

Did Anderson not entirely realize that the witness was a Jew? Did his name not sound Jewish? On this thread I gave the example of Frank Ruffell a carman (witness in the Farmer case).

Oldbailey 1885 shows:

THOMAS HALEY (22) and FRANK RUFFELL , Robbery with violence with another person unknown on James Carey, and stealing a watch, a chain, and seal, his property.

“AMELIA RUFFELL . I am a Dutch Jewess and Ruffell's mother—I am a widow—I live at 10, Wine Court, Whitechapel—on 24th September Ruffell had been selling grapes at the corner of Baker's Row—I brought him his dinner at 4 o'clock.”

Via Worldvitalrecords you can see a Francis Ruffell, Carman, in 1891.

I don´t know if Oldbailey´s Frank Ruffel is identical with Frank Ruffell (Carman 1888/Farmer) and/or Francis Ruffell (a Carman in 1891) but Ruffell sounds not Jewish to me. But the maiden name of his mother might have been Abrahams, Cohen, Levy, Lewis, Solomon, Goldstein etc.

This is my idea of the Seaside Home witness, young, his mother widowed, both living in Whitechapel, Jewish but the name Ruffell, I´m not sure, of a Scandinavian origin. I must confess I really do not know it but I think in the Netherlands it was possible to marry a man or woman who were not Jewish. In the case of Ruffell it would be possible that his father was not born Jewish.

However, pure speculation.

Karsten.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 11-30-2016, 07:59 AM
Paddy Paddy is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 714
Default

Quote:
It appears that the family of Woolf Abrahams was not the only family branch that lived near Dutfields Yard
Hi Karsten I did read on a very blurred newspaper article (find my past) that When Aarons' sister came to Whitechapel she had many relations here.

I am sure there are more cousins around...

Pat......
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 11-30-2016, 01:34 PM
S.Brett S.Brett is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 319
Default

Thanks Pat!

As might be expected... can I see the newspaper on findmypast without being logged in?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 11-30-2016, 04:15 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 714
Default

Quote:
As might be expected... can I see the newspaper on findmypast without being logged in?
Dont think you can see the whole lot maybe just a snippet but I still think you would have to register to search. Unfortunately it didn't name the relations just said she had many.

Pat...
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 08-08-2017, 04:29 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,447
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Pat

just had a reread of the article, and yes it is very, very good, certainly with the possible placements of home addresses for the Family.

I am convinced that what Swanson wrote was a truthful account from his point of view.
I tend to go with the view that he agrees with Anderson, and is adding information, not merely supporting it.

However one must conceded the view you make is also entirely possible


regards

Steve
As has been pointed out, this was just marginalia and not a book setting out Swanson's views although he could have said "Anderson's suspect (with which I did not concur) ... or something to that effect.


c.d.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.