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  • #31
    Hi, Mr Lucky.

    Thanks for that. Haven't seen that one.
    However, "when i saw a man standing where the woman was" is a much vaguer statement than saying that he saw Cross standing directly by the body or leaning over it. It is certainly not the same thing.

    And of course, I would rather rely on what he said under oath during the inquest rather than what he stated to a newspaper and a Lloyd's representative anyway.

    All the best
    Last edited by Glenn Lauritz Andersson; 09-06-2012, 12:11 AM.
    The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Glenn Lauritz Andersson View Post
      And of course, I would rather rely on what he said under oath during the inquest rather than what he stated to a newspaper and a Lloyd's representative anyway.
      Hi Glenn

      Here's two of my favourites from the 'Paul under oath' folder -

      'He knelt down to see if he could hear her breathe, but he could not.’ - St James Gazette 18th Sept. 1888

      ‘He and the man examined the body, and he felt sure he detected faint indications of breathing.’ - Daily news 18th Sept. 1888

      Best wishes

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Glenn Lauritz Andersson View Post
        Hi, Mr Lucky.

        Thanks for that. Haven't seen that one.
        However, "when i saw a man standing where the woman was" is a much vaguer statement than saying that he saw Cross standing directly by the body or leaning over it. It is certainly not the same thing.

        And of course, I would rather rely on what he said under oath during the inquest rather than what he stated to a newspaper and a Lloyd's representative anyway.

        All the best
        Good to see you back Glenn,

        Monty
        Monty

        https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

        Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

        http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

        Comment


        • #34
          Glenn:

          "I have been away from the Ripper scene for quite a while, so bear with me - new material may have come up since I last buried myself into the case - but I am a bit puzzled by a couple of Edward Stowes cited claims in The Telegraph:

          "He was seen crouching over Polly Nichols and he was trying to cover up some of the wounds."
          [...]
          "Paul claimed he had seen Cross standing by the body of Nichols when he had arrived but Cross later told police he had been standing away from the body in the road.""

          Let´s take it from the beginning, Glenn: a warm welcome back to the boards!! We need to get together and have a beer as soon as possible!

          Then, on to the two quotations; where is the source? Well, I´d say probably on the office of the Daily Telegraph. Just like you say, nowhere is it on print that Lechmere (I prefer to call him that, and not Cross) was ever crouching over the body. In Paul´s initial contact with the press, he says that Lechmere was standing "where the body was", and subsequently it is spoken of the middle of the road. I have pointed out on numerous occasions that it matters little if it was one, two or five yards - it still allows for him having done the deed and backed off as he noticed Robert Paul.

          The Telegraph also got the name wrong ("Latchmere") just as they missed out on the fact that the Stride killing was NOT something that happened along Lechmere´s route to work. These things will happen every now and then, and I can say that there was a very large and sudden haste since the reporter could not open the documents we had sent over, meaning that there was a very hasty interview made over the phone, in direct connection with the event in St Johns.

          But never mind that - let´s get together over a beer, and I will fill in the gaps in all of this. Just like you say, Lechmere has been a suspect for a number of years, mainly owing to Michael Connor´s research - but more has been added, much more, and if I am not very much mistaken, there are further developments ahead.

          All the best, Glenn!
          Fisherman
          Last edited by Fisherman; 09-06-2012, 07:03 AM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            Just like you say, nowhere is it on print that Lechmere (I prefer to call him that, and not Cross) was ever crouching over the body. In Paul´s initial contact with the press, he says that Lechmere was standing "where the body was", and subsequently it is spoken of the middle of the road. I have pointed out on numerous occasions that it matters little if it was one, two or five yards - it still allows for him having done the deed and backed off as he noticed Robert Paul.
            Absolutely, I agree, and I think it is a reasonable assumption.
            So I am not disputing that. What worries me a bit is your co-writer is cited saying very clear and definitive things like
            "He was seen crouching over Polly Nichols and he was trying to cover up some of the wounds."
            [...]
            "Paul claimed he had seen Cross standing by the body of Nichols when he had arrived but Cross later told police he had been standing away from the body in the road."
            And stating them like they were facts, when in fact they are not and - as I understand - only personal interpretations.

            Those things stated above in the interview are a very long way from "standing where the body was" which could mean anything, and of course there is no evidence at all that he was leaning over the body although he most certainly could have been before Robert Paul arrived.

            Now, I have myself personal experience from journalists twisting your words beyond recognition, but the statements from Edward Stowe are still remarkable.

            However, once again I must stress , that I much rather prefer to rely on what a witness says under oath during an inquest than what he says to a newspaper reporter in the initial stage. There can be no question, as far as source criticism is concerned, that the description he gave during the inquest that Lechmere was "standing in the middle of the road" is a more credible source and reliable piece of information.

            But again, this doesn't in any way dispute Lechmere's candidacy for Jack the Ripper or that things could have happened as described. I just think Stowe went too far in his statements by presenting these things like facts, even though I personally may agree with the interpretation as such.

            Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            But never mind that - let´s get together over a beer, and I will fill in the gaps in all of this. Just like you say, Lechmere has been a suspect for a number of years, mainly owing to Michael Connor´s research - but more has been added, much more, and if I am not very much mistaken, there are further developments ahead.
            Indeed we must, Fisherman.

            All the best
            /Glenn
            Last edited by Glenn Lauritz Andersson; 09-06-2012, 03:47 PM.
            The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

            Comment


            • #36
              Hi Monty, and thanks.
              Not really a real comeback, though. Just that this development got me a bit curios. I am myself quite a supporter of the Cross/Lechmere idea and since I know Fisherman personally it brought it all back to me a bit.

              Hope all is well with you and the others.
              Sorry I can't make to the conference this time either but again, it's a money issue. Would love to be there and see many of you again.

              Cheers
              /Glenn
              Last edited by Glenn Lauritz Andersson; 09-06-2012, 03:40 PM.
              The Swedes are the Men that Will not Be Blamed for Nothing

              Comment


              • #37
                Hi Glenn
                I don’t think you shouldn’t get hung up over a loose word here or there.
                Journalists are not experts in the case – most know nothing at all and try to put a story together quickly and based on partial information and then have to decipher their own short hand.
                Also a charity occasion, such as that which sparked the interest in the Lechmere theory, will necessarily involve people in the organisation and promotion of the event who might be very keen, well meaning and helpful, yet unaware that every little detail of a press release would be dissected by ‘Ripper enthusiasts’ (if that is the right term).

                The fact that this theory was trending on the internet shows that there is widespread interest in this field of study and people should be gratified about that.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
                  Hi Glenn
                  I don’t think you shouldn’t get hung up over a loose word here or there.
                  Journalists are not experts in the case – most know nothing at all and try to put a story together quickly and based on partial information and then have to decipher their own short hand.
                  Also a charity occasion, such as that which sparked the interest in the Lechmere theory, will necessarily involve people in the organisation and promotion of the event who might be very keen, well meaning and helpful, yet unaware that every little detail of a press release would be dissected by ‘Ripper enthusiasts’ (if that is the right term).

                  The fact that this theory was trending on the internet shows that there is widespread interest in this field of study and people should be gratified about that.
                  Hi Lech
                  I saw the articles on the internet-Congrats for the recognition to you and Fish. They mentioned two authors-Christer who i know is Fish, but also Edward Stow? Is that you and your real name?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Real name? You ask about real names in a Charles Cross/Lechmere thread?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Lechmere View Post
                      Real name? You ask about real names in a Charles Cross/Lechmere thread?
                      HaHa-yes. But just dont tell me your real name is Cross!
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        I shall have to dig out my birth certificate and check

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Perhaps not entirely relevant but consider John Williams.
                          Not the Dr John Williams who appears on Casebooks' suspect board but John Williams of 65 Dorchester road,Canklow,Rotherham.
                          Which is the name and address given by Peter Sutcliffe when he was arrested in Sheffield.
                          If nothing else it proves that when it comes to odd coincidences,the ripper case is unbeatable.
                          (source Wicked Beyond Belief by Micheal Bilton)
                          All the best.

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