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  #11  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:11 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 4 -Neil

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Old 08-10-2017, 02:16 AM
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 4a -Neil

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Time to look at the reports of PC Neil’s , testimony.


The first thing to say is that the press reports from the 31st and 3rd which claim blood flowing profusely are not included in this particular chart. There is nothing to suggest the comments are quotes, let alone the interview claimed by some. Indeed in some of the reports actual quotes are given, or attributions made to other witnesses, but none are to Neil, it can therefore be argued that these reports are not the views of PC Neil. They are to be found in the press chart.


Neil says he arrives at 3.45 in reports 1,2,8 & 10. In reports 1,2, 3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 & 12, all say about half hour before he found the body.,

In addition he claims to have been at the slaughter house in Winthrop Street approx 30 minutes before, some reports “about 3.15” (,3,4,5,6,11 & 12 ), some “3.15” (7) or “ about 3.20” (8, 9 & 10).

Obviously if the beat took exactly 30 minutes and he was in Bucks Row 30 minutes before has he says he could not have been also at slaughter house at same time; however he does say “about” so we can allow say 5minutes variation.
We will look at this in greater detail in part 3 to see just how possible it was to be at the slaughter house some 25-30 minutes before Neil found the body.
Hopefully this will allow us to asses if the suggested beat is correct.

Related is where Neil was when he saw the body, the Northern or Southern side of Bucks Row, some have argued that this may indicate which side of Bucks Row he entered from, North or South, again something I will discuss in depth in part 3.

The inquest reports while initially seeming clear on this are actually rather confusing on the issue,

The earliest surviving reports (1 & 2) gives no indication of the side Neil is on, but says the body was on the right hand side of the road
Report 2 Lloyds says Neil is on the left hand side(North) of the street and “he went across” to the body, this implies he crosses the road.

However now we have issues, reports 4, 5,6,7,11 & 12 all say he was on the right hand side(South) of the street, but all also say “I went across” , although report 7 gives it in the 3rd person “he”. This again implies crossing over and there seems to be an anomaly here

Reports 8,9 &10 make no comment on his positioning at all.

An interesting issue is that in report 1 it states “it was on the right hand side of Bucks Row” whilst the others which mention aside say “I was on the right hand side of the street” report 2 says on the “right hand side of the road”


One other point of interest is some information in a post by David Orsam relating to the origins of many of the reports of the inquest for the 1st September:


“The key to identifying the different reporters in court on that day may be in the address of Edward Walker.

According to Lloyds/Morning Advertiser/Standard etc. he lived at "15, Maidwell-street, Albany-road, Camberwell".

According to the Evening Post reporter, however, he lived in "Maiden-street, Albany-road, Camberwell", no door number being provided.

The Times has his address as being "16 Maidswood-road, Camberwell" from which I think we can conclude that the Times had a separate reporter at the inquest and that there were at least three reporters in the courtroom that day.

I note that the Echo - assuming it's been transcribed correctly - has Walker living at "16, Madswood-street, Albany-road, Camberwell" which is a bit similar to the Times but might indicate the presence of a fourth reporter.”



This is obviously a very intriguing question and will be looked at very carefully later in part 3.


We will need to see also how his timing of 3.45 fits with other witnesses, notably Paul, but also Thain and Mizen, and while it will not be possible to be exact we may at that point be able to asses if any of the 4 is likely to be incorrect.


His description of finding the body is also of interest, he says he saw blood only with aid of a lamp, which suggest Lechmere and Paul were unlikely to have noticed it, unless they touched Nichols neck area or touched the pool. He also claims it is oozing at this stage in all ten reports.

However at a later stage he uses the word running, to describe to flow from her neck to the pool, Reports 3,4,5,6,11 &12. Reports 1,2,7,8,9 &10 make no mention of the word “running”


It is suggested that this is a contradiction in Neil’s testimony, however such can easily be explained away as “oozing” referring to the actual blood flow from the wound, while “running” is a way of showing where the blood was coming from. Such is often used in English such as the road runs from point A to point B or the leak was running across the floor from the radiator, it does not denote speed of flow.

He also noted that her arms were warm from elbow up, suggesting that while death had occurred recently he may not have been immediately before he arrived.

He clearly says he heard, not saw Thain passing by the Eastern End of Bucks Row in Brady street and signalled to him, and subsequently sent him to get Dr Llewellyn in 10 out of the 12reports .

Report 2 is an oddity in that it mentions only one other officer, not two and while it says Neil heard this officer it then says he sent him to get the ambulance it looks as if there is some confusion on merging of the details at this point.

After this and before the Doctor arrives he see Mizen in Bakers Row, some reports say passing along Bakers Row (1,8,9 &10)

One assumes he signalled to Mizen by lamp, such is supported by reports in the Times and Echo 3rd September (7a and 8a), which appear to be direct quotes or interview with Neil, that he signalled to and was responded to by both Thain and Mizen,
One small issue we will need to look at in part 3 is could Neil actually see any of the junction of Whites Row/Bakers Row from his position in Bucks Row, we can see from the reports that he did move across to the Northern side of the street to knock at Essex Wharf, but the exact timing of this is unclear.

It is interesting that some claim this report, particularly the Echo, proves that on Sunday 2nd Neil was still claiming to be the finder, it does not, as it gives no indication of the time of the comments.

We see the story of the 12 minute beat starting here, however there is no source for this assertion which is counted by the Echo report 21st September. (The beat is something I will look at in depth in part 3).

In addition we have the odd comments that neither Thain or Mizen noticed anyone to attract attention; very odd given that in his sworn testimony Thain says he saw two men walking down Brady street and Mizen appears to be denying meeting the carmen.

This report need to be read with great care and caution, it may not be reliable.

What is of interest is Neil’s report that two slaughter men arrived at the scene first (reports 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11 &12) does he mean before Thain, Mizen or the arrival of Llewellyn? Or does he mean the first members of the public?
When one looks at Mizen’s statements that Neil was alone, we can I think assume that he means after he sent the two police officers to get assistance.
Reports 2 & 8 say that they arrive as body is about to go on ambulance and were first general pubic to arrive apart from man who passed unknown.
Report 2 is initially confusing it says the two from the slaughter house were the first arrive on the scene, yet earlier in the report says two men are there before, however it qualifies this by stating this was as the result of being knocked by the police, could these two therefore be Mr Purkiss and Mrs Greens son - James?

Reports 2, 9 & 10 say Llewellyn came in about 10 minutes after he sent Thain, others are less precise and say short time.

When looking at the above in Part 3 we will need to see how it fits in with the testimony of the carmen, Mizen, and Thain before we can reach any firm conclusions.
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  #13  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:19 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 5 -Mizen

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When looking at the reports of PC Mizen, there are many things to consider, his meeting with the Carmen and the “Mizen Scam” and his reporting of seeing blood back at the murder site.

The first issue is the odd mistake about the time events occurred.
In 7 of the 12 reports he claims to meet the Carmen at either 3.45 (3 reports: 1, 7, 12 ) or “about 3.45 (4 reports: 2,4, 6,10 ) in the remaining 5 reports, 3 for some reason give 4.20 (3, 5,8) while 2 give 4.15 (9,11)

Obviously there was a major misunderstanding here with several reporters, it is of course reasonable that a quarter to four may have become garbled as a quarter past, but that does not account for the reports of 4.20am

According to Mizen only one Carman spoke to him, although he says both were indeed there, this testimony is contrary to both of the carmen and is part of a major issue in what has been termed the “Mizen Scam.”

The issue is what was said to him,

Of 12 reports, 7 say he was told he was just wanted, 5 however say by another policeman.
One should assume that the non mention of this by 7 reports is just an oversight, and it is implied.
However this is contrary to the statements of Lechmere and Paul.

He admits that he did continue knocking up after he was spoken to, but says he only finished the knock up he was on, 2 or 3 knocks. This can be seen as either honesty or an attempt to cover up realising a complete denial would be pointless. However there is no way of knowing.

Mizen says he went straight to Bucks Row and found Neil shining his light on pavement, no mention of seeing him from Bakers Row, only when gets to site.

All of this will be discussed in much greater depth in part 3


The reports suggest that on arrival he went for an ambulance, and on returning with it assisted removing body and his description of bleeding from the neck is from this period ( reports: 1, 4, 5, 7)
Only one report is unclear and may be interpreted as being from before the ambulance, however this report contains no details about assisting in removing the body and it may be that as been excised by the editor of the report (3)
Report 6 is the only other report to discuss loading onto ambulance and there is no mention at all of Mizen seeing any blood at all at any time, and so is of no value in the debate as to when he sees blood.

Again as with Neil the use of “running” can be seen as direction description rather than speed of flow.

However the issue here is does he make this report after he gets the ambulance and assists loading body, or before.
If the former we are talking about a period of over a minimum of 16 minutes after he first arrives at the body as discussed in The Bucks Row Project part 1 post 8, such does not really fit with the blood flow theory and we shall discuss this in detail in part 3.

However if his report is from the time of his arrive, which while not backed by the sources, is not impossible, we have a period ranging from about 9minutes 35 seconds up to 14 minutes as in The Bucks Row Project part 1 post 9, again this is outside of the suggested range of the Blood Flow Theory


Is there a tendency in his testimony?

Yes in that he says went at once and straight to Neil, does not mention he was signalled to by Neil.
He attempts to portray himself as fully conforming to his duty.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:22 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Default Bucks Row Project part 2 post 6 -Thain

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An important issue when looking at Thain is his Timings, to do this the first thing we need to look at is the beat of Thain. It is covered in the Echo report of the 21st September.

“The fourth constable would commence at Baker's row, go through Nottingham street, White
street, Bethnal Green road, Mape street, London street, to Baker's row, and all the interior, consisting of about thirty streets, courts, passages, &c.”


This was a very long beat,

The external walking distance is approximately 1470 yards, the internal is over 1800 yards giving a total of over 3250 yards, far greater than the beat of Neil.

If he covered the whole beat at 3mph it would take approx 37 minutes and if he walked at 2.5 mph it is a staggering 45 minutes. Indeed if he walked at a constant 3mph the greatest distance he could cover in 30 minutes is 2640 yards and if at at 2.5 we have maximum distance of 2190yards.

( feedback from part 1 has allowed me to reassess the likely walking speed of constables and I shall be making some changes in part 3 based on that, however for now I will continue to use both 2.5 and 3mph).


In the inquest reports when talking about the beat : he says “30 minutes”, ( Reports 2,4,5,6,7 ) or “about 30 minutes” ( Reports: 1,3,8 & 9 ).

It therefore seems clear that he did not do all the beat every circuit if his statement of 30 minutes is to be accepted, Not exactly half hour beat but close. However he passed at 3.15 and 3.45, report 7 seems to confirm this

It seems that he passed the end of bucks row close to 3.45

Reports : 1,3,7 & 8 say “about”, Reports : 2,3,4,5 & 9 give “at 3.45” or “a quarter to 4” and Report 6 makes no comment


He was signalled to by Neil and he responded and went to get the doctor.
When he arrived at Neil , he was alone reports: 1 & 7.


His next comments are of particular interest he says that on his return he saw 2 workmen standing with Neil, and he did not know them ( reports:2 & 7), this appears to be at odds with Neil’s statements that the first public to arrive were from the slaughter house. Is Thain saying these were not them or just that he did not know them personally, if the former and Neil is correct how then did they come to be here if Thain had not in fact already told them.
Or are the two men he sees with Neil, Purkiss and Green as speculated in part 2 post 4.

He says in reports 2,7 & 9 that he went to get his cape from the slaughter house, in reports 2 & 7 he says he had not left it there, but another constable had, there is no mention of whom, but one should assume Neil as it was on his beat. There is no mention of why, it was not raining, so could not have got wet.
In report 7 it is reported he did not go to the slaughter house first before the Doctor, in report 2 the wording is slightly different saying he did not say he was going for a doctor? Is this significant or just the wording being less than precise?
This is covered in a thread by David Orsam “PC Thain’s Cape which is worth reading. I shall analysis this more in part 3

We now need to asses his comments about the amount of blood

Report 1 large quantity on pavement, and back appeared saturated as far as waist.
Reports 4 & 5 large clot near wall running into gutter, back appeared saturated as far as waist.
Report 6 much blood against gate, dress soaked with blood.
Report 7 when body moved large area of congealed blood about 6 inches seen, some running towards gutter, dress covered as far as waist, also blood in area of legs.
Report 9 large quantity of blood in gutter which had run from pavement, clothing saturated with blood which appear to have run from back.

Some interesting points here, Thain uses the term running to describe the blood moving from the pavement into the gutter, he obviously does not mean it is flowing under pressure, and is therefore similar to the use of the word by Neil and Mizen, he also uses it to describe the flow of blood in Nichols clothing.

From the above we can see that there was blood in a large quantity present both on the pavement and in her clothing, in addition he says there was blood under her, but more importantly that much had gone from the pavement into the gutter, was this clear before the body was moved, and how far had it run. The extent is not recorded and Thain was involved with washing it away with Green and so probably had the best view of all the police there.

He also searched the street but found no additional blood, as in going to or from the body, reports 4,5 & 7.

Additionally he also reported just before he saw Neil he saw two men going towards Whitechapel road, so the area not as deserted as many imply reports 2 & 7.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:23 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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That is all for today, the next parts will be posted Saturday or Sunday.



steve
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  #16  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:28 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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Following closely, waiting to hear what you make of it all.
__________________
G U T

There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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  #17  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:33 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Following closely, waiting to hear what you make of it all.

Hi Geoff,

thanks for the encouragement

Wont be anything definite until this is completed, should finish posting before this time next week, then i wait for any comments before finishing part 3.

Comments are good, Dusty pointed out a mistake and an omission which i have corrected on my master copies.

Maybe end of September, but more likely end October.


steve
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:38 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Attachment 18190

Attachment 18191

When looking at the reports of PC Mizen, there are many things to consider, his meeting with the Carmen and the “Mizen Scam” and his reporting of seeing blood back at the murder site.

The first issue is the odd mistake about the time events occurred.
In 7 of the 12 reports he claims to meet the Carmen at either 3.45 (3 reports: 1, 7, 12 ) or “about 3.45 (4 reports: 2,4, 6,10 ) in the remaining 5 reports, 3 for some reason give 4.20 (3, 5,8) while 2 give 4.15 (9,11)

Obviously there was a major misunderstanding here with several reporters, it is of course reasonable that a quarter to four may have become garbled as a quarter past, but that does not account for the reports of 4.20am

According to Mizen only one Carman spoke to him, although he says both were indeed there, this testimony is contrary to both of the carmen and is part of a major issue in what has been termed the “Mizen Scam.”

The issue is what was said to him,

Of 12 reports, 7 say he was told he was just wanted, 5 however say by another policeman.
One should assume that the non mention of this by 7 reports is just an oversight, and it is implied.
However this is contrary to the statements of Lechmere and Paul.

He admits that he did continue knocking up after he was spoken to, but says he only finished the knock up he was on, 2 or 3 knocks. This can be seen as either honesty or an attempt to cover up realising a complete denial would be pointless. However there is no way of knowing.

Mizen says he went straight to Bucks Row and found Neil shining his light on pavement, no mention of seeing him from Bakers Row, only when gets to site.

All of this will be discussed in much greater depth in part 3


The reports suggest that on arrival he went for an ambulance, and on returning with it assisted removing body and his description of bleeding from the neck is from this period ( reports: 1, 4, 5, 7)
Only one report is unclear and may be interpreted as being from before the ambulance, however this report contains no details about assisting in removing the body and it may be that as been excised by the editor of the report (3)
Report 6 is the only other report to discuss loading onto ambulance and there is no mention at all of Mizen seeing any blood at all at any time, and so is of no value in the debate as to when he sees blood.

Again as with Neil the use of “running” can be seen as direction description rather than speed of flow.

However the issue here is does he make this report after he gets the ambulance and assists loading body, or before.
If the former we are talking about a period of over a minimum of 16 minutes after he first arrives at the body as discussed in The Bucks Row Project part 1 post 8, such does not really fit with the blood flow theory and we shall discuss this in detail in part 3.

However if his report is from the time of his arrive, which while not backed by the sources, is not impossible, we have a period ranging from about 9minutes 35 seconds up to 14 minutes as in The Bucks Row Project part 1 post 9, again this is outside of the suggested range of the Blood Flow Theory


Is there a tendency in his testimony?

Yes in that he says went at once and straight to Neil, does not mention he was signalled to by Neil.
He attempts to portray himself as fully conforming to his duty.
Hi Steve
Just to mention that the police officers reports would as likely as not have been made/compiled when they returned to the police station and not at the time. The practice used to be that when a number of police officers were involved in the same incident they would also sit down together and write up their reports to ensure they were all singing from the same song sheet.

I think what you have shown so far is how unsafe it is to totally rely on what the newspapers published, not only in relation to this murder but some of the others also.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
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  #19  
Old 08-10-2017, 02:42 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
Hi Steve
Just to mention that the police officers reports would as likely as not have been made/compiled when they returned to the police station and not at the time. The practice used to be that when a number of police officers were involved in the same incident they would also sit down together and write up their reports to ensure they were all singing from the same song sheet.

I think what you have shown so far is how unsafe it is to totally rely on what the newspapers published, not only in relation to this murder but some of the others also.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk
Thanks Trevor,

greatly appreciated, I suggest that had not happened between Mizen and Neil before late Sunday at the earliest.


Steve
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:47 AM
Trevor Marriott Trevor Marriott is offline
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Thanks Trevor,

greatly appreciated, I suggest that had not happened between Mizen and Neil before late Sunday at the earliest.


Steve
Perhaps they never got together to write them !

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Last edited by Trevor Marriott : 08-10-2017 at 02:50 AM.
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