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  #21  
Old 03-27-2017, 07:43 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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The estimates need not be wrong, I think; if he knew that he covered a stretch in four minutes of normal walking, then he could easily say that it was no more than four minutes if he knew that he had hurried.

Just as you say, we are left with guesswork, though.
Christer to play devils advocate on the estimation, it's of course true that it includes from the time he saw the body. So that's the verbal exchange with Lechmere and looking at the body plus the walking.
I just think that no more than 4 minutes is too pricise for that.
Having said that, the calculations I have been doing on timings and distance suggest his guess is fairly close to what was possible.


Steve
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  #22  
Old 03-27-2017, 08:40 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Christer to play devils advocate on the estimation, it's of course true that it includes from the time he saw the body. So that's the verbal exchange with Lechmere and looking at the body plus the walking.
I just think that no more than 4 minutes is too pricise for that.
Having said that, the calculations I have been doing on timings and distance suggest his guess is fairly close to what was possible.


Steve
I can easily see your problem, Steve. But I can just as easily see a solution that I think works. To me, "no more than four minutes" need not be too precise at all. If he had the stretch divided up in sections (the way I used to do it myself on my way to and from work), then he can gauge the approximate time. And albeit the information may sound too precise to your ears, it may be a question of him thinking "Hmm, that walk would take two minutes, I know that, and then we stood by the woman for no more than a minute...well, perhaps it was a minute and a half, but no more..." That would lead him to think three and a half minutes at most. And then he said "no more than four minutes", since he thought that would cover it at any rate.

So it need not be very precise per se - it may just as well be a weighting that allowed for a range of times, boxed in by what you think sounds precise.

Just a suggestion! And just like you, I think it sounds like four minutes tops is a fair weighing on Paulīs behalf.

Last edited by Fisherman : 03-27-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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  #23  
Old 03-27-2017, 09:11 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is online now
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I can easily see your problem, Steve. But I can just as easily see a solution that I think works. To me, "no more than four minutes" need not be too precise at all. If he had the stretch divided up in sections (the way I used to do it myself on my way to and from work), then he can gauge the approximate time. And albeit the information may sound too precise to your ears, it may be a question of him thinking "Hmm, that walk would take two minutes, I know that, and then we stood by the woman for no more than a minute...well, perhaps it was a minute and a half, but no more..." That would lead him to think three and a half minutes at most. And then he said "no more than four minutes", since he thought that would cover it at any rate.

So it need not be very precise per se - it may just as well be a weighting that allowed for a range of times, boxed in by what you think sounds precise.

Just a suggestion! And just like you, I think it sounds like four minutes tops is a fair weighing on Paulīs behalf.

Christer,

It might go slightly over 4, but probably no more than 5, all depends on how long the checking of Nichols took, some activities like that are hard to judge; that minute, minute and a half could just as easily be nearer two.


Steve
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:16 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Christer,

It might go slightly over 4, but probably no more than 5, all depends on how long the checking of Nichols took, some activities like that are hard to judge; that minute, minute and a half could just as easily be nearer two.


Steve
Not if Paul was on the money, it canīt...

Just kidding, Steve.
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  #25  
Old 03-27-2017, 09:35 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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If you are suggesting that the clocks did not strike in the earlier hours, it would be nice to see some evidence for that.
I wasn't suggesting this, I was doubting they did, but only on the basis that it must surely have been inconvenient to all the many residents of Whitechapel trying to get to sleep to have bells chiming through the night every 15 minutes. After 5am maybe but all through the night? Perhaps it was different in those days but I'd like to see some evidence of it before even thinking it might account for the witness timings in the Nichols murder, especially a witness timing in a newspaper article which contains known errors of fact and which contradicts the time given by the investigating detective in his report to the Assistant Commissioner.
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  #26  
Old 03-27-2017, 09:55 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I wasn't suggesting this, I was doubting they did, but only on the basis that it must surely have been inconvenient to all the many residents of Whitechapel trying to get to sleep to have bells chiming through the night every 15 minutes. After 5am maybe but all through the night? Perhaps it was different in those days but I'd like to see some evidence of it before even thinking it might account for the witness timings in the Nichols murder, especially a witness timing in a newspaper article which contains known errors of fact and which contradicts the time given by the investigating detective in his report to the Assistant Commissioner.
Even Big Ben has always chimed the quarter hour, since itīs debut in the 1850:s. I fail to see that clocks were allowed to wake people up at 2.00, 2.30, 3.00. 3.30, but not at 2.15, 2.45, 3.45 etcetera. It would be an odd logic.

The probable solution to the question perhaps lies in how the chiming was not the same at all hours (or quarter hours) - in the Big Ben case, other chimes were used at the quarter strikes, and I suspect the same may be true for many clocks. It may have been a smaller, milder sound at the quarter strikes. But if you want evidence for how it worked, you will have to find it yourself, as I said.

People walked to work in these early hours too, so there was a practical need for time guidance.
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  #27  
Old 03-27-2017, 10:42 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
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I wasn't suggesting this, I was doubting they did, but only on the basis that it must surely have been inconvenient to all the many residents of Whitechapel trying to get to sleep to have bells chiming through the night every 15 minutes. After 5am maybe but all through the night? Perhaps it was different in those days but I'd like to see some evidence of it before even thinking it might account for the witness timings in the Nichols murder, especially a witness timing in a newspaper article which contains known errors of fact and which contradicts the time given by the investigating detective in his report to the Assistant Commissioner.
I can't speak for Victorian Whitechapel but I'm pretty sure that some church and civic clocks sound the chimes day and night to this day, even though there's no need any more. A while ago a friend of mine lived near a church that did and whenever I stayed over the chimes would keep me awake, but being used to them she never noticed.
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  #28  
Old 03-27-2017, 10:45 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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I fail to see that clocks were allowed to wake people up at 2.00, 2.30, 3.00. 3.30, but not at 2.15, 2.45, 3.45 etcetera. It would be an odd logic.
That wasn't my logic at all. I asked if public clocks were striking every 15 minutes throughout the night in Whitechapel. I've yet to see any evidence of it.
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  #29  
Old 03-27-2017, 10:57 AM
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That wasn't my logic at all. I asked if public clocks were striking every 15 minutes throughout the night in Whitechapel. I've yet to see any evidence of it.
Suit yourself, David. There īs a world of knowledge out there. Some of it may fit your logic.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:02 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Suit yourself, David. There īs a world of knowledge out there. Some of it may fit your logic.
What do you think of my logic that the body was most likely to have been discovered at about 3.40am, rather than 3.45am, because that's what Inspector Abberline put in his report?
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