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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #461  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:38 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Just a thought-If the disposal was considered discreet at the time, would anyone have suggested it was a student 'prank'? Aren't pranks done for impact?
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  #462  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:41 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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If the killers had wanted guaranteed recognition, they'd almost certainly have left the body parts in more prominent places, instead of dumping them in a river, chucking them in canals or stashing them in underground vaults and railway arches.
You seem to champion Trevors ideas? All that talk about killers and the former statement that we should not speak of murders since it is not a sure thing, I mean?

Anyway, what does the cellar vaults of the New Scotland Yard and the garden of Percy Shelley lack in prominence in your view? Is it not true that the world has been appalled by the audacity shown by the killer for more than a hundred years? Has it not always been looked at as truly remarkable?

If ALL the parts had been thrown into the Thames, you would still not have a good point - but a much better one.

But recognizing what this killer did, there is no way we are going to be able to rid ourselves of the very clearly implicated idea that the killer wanted recognition. That´s what has gone down in the history books, and for a good reason too.

If you don´t mind my saying so, I feel you are fighting a battle you cannot win. Telling me that you only meant the parts dumped in the Thames when you spoke of discretion goes some way to show you what I mean - apparently, you have realised that the sum of things does not add up to discretion at all.

And, as I have said repeatedly, if he wanted the parts thrown into the Thames to go lost unnoticed, he would quickly enough have realised that the scheme had backfired gloriously when 12 out of 13 parts of the 1873 torso were retrieved on their passage through central London - which is very, very understandable when you allow packages to be washed up along the shores of the largest metropolis in the world.

Once he know that didn´t work, how come this man, so much in favour of discretion, actually made the river dumping a reoccuring ritual where all of London got a fair chance to find one of his packages? When a journalist, sent out to write about the sensation, was actually rewarded in his task by finding a package of his very own?

Like Trow says- and has recorded for posterity - the very obvious purpose seems to have been to taunt and terrify. That is how logically reasoning people see it.
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  #463  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:45 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
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Interesting stuff! Was any further work done to see if all the pieces were dumped at the same time, or a few bits a day over the course of the week?
Could we possibly trace the route taken? Assuming all pieces were dumped at the same time (more or less), could Torso man have simply strolled across Albert Bridge, occasionally lobbing a parcel from his wheelbarrow/costerbarrow/pickfords van over the side when nobody was about? If there was too much traffic (either road or river) he may have thrown parcels from the embankment, either into the river or the Shelley house.
Seems plausible enough?

The only outlier is the leg found at Wandsworth, which seems to have found it's way upstream....
Unfortunately, no, Josh. John mentioned other factors that would influence the pace and direction of other portions , including obstacles, wind direction buoyancy etc. I think it has been mentioned in the past that the upstream find may have been moved in a different direction by a vessel?


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  #464  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:47 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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The torso men might have been wacky, but doesn't excuse OUR wacky reasoning.
I need no excuse, Gareth. I am making perfectly viable points and you are making something of a spectacle of yourself. Which is kind of sad.
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  #465  
Old 10-11-2017, 01:48 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Debra A View Post
Just a thought-If the disposal was considered discreet at the time, would anyone have suggested it was a student 'prank'? Aren't pranks done for impact?
That would be the common view, yes.
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  #466  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:00 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Just a thought-If the disposal was considered discreet at the time, would anyone have suggested it was a student 'prank'? Aren't pranks done for impact?
For clarity, I said that dumping body parts was comparatively discreet compared to ripping women open in public and removing their organs with the police breathing down one's neck. Which is perfectly true.

Fisherman seems to think that I said that dumping body parts was "discreet" in some absolute sense, which I never claimed.
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  #467  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:05 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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You seem to champion Trevors ideas? All that talk about killers and the former statement that we should not speak of murders since it is not a sure thing, I mean?
Whatever you meant by that, I'm certainly not doing any of it. I'm certainly not championing Trevor's ideas, nor his approach for that matter.
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  #468  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:05 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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A fair enough observation. But if he wanted maximum attention for what he did, then it would be anything but whacky to float the parts through central London, where most of them would be (and indeed were) found.

Frustration is not a good thing to bring into a discussion, I think we may agree on that.
I think you meant respond to sams previous post or misunderstood me, but I’m agreeing with you.
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  #469  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:06 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
For clarity, I said that dumping body parts was comparatively discreet compared to ripping women open in public and removing their organs with the police breathing down one's neck. Which is perfectly true.

Fisherman seems to think that I said that dumping body parts was "discreet" in some absolute sense, which I never claimed.
No, Gareth. You said, and I am quoting you word by word:

"I see rather the opposite in the torso cases, namely a practical disposal mechanism that bordered on the discreet; much like flushing one's waste down the toilet."

So you were not saying that the dumping was discreet only in comparison with what the Ripper did. You said that you saw the opposite thing to the Rippers deeds when looking at the torso deeds, namely a disposal that bordered on the discreet.

You may have MEANT that it was discreet only in comparison with the Rippers deeds - but God knows that just about anything is discreet in comparison with those deeds - but that was not what you said. And I can only comment on what you say, not what you may or may not think.

Then again, if you are now saying that the torso deeds were anything BUT discreet per se, we are making a lot of progress.

Last edited by Fisherman : 10-11-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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  #470  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:10 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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The torso men might have been wacky, but doesn't excuse OUR wacky reasoning.
Men?, torso killers?

I think even the consensus then and now is that the torso victims, at least the 80s ones were the work of one man.
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