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  #1  
Old 08-31-2017, 11:22 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Default The Possible Murder of Georgina Byrne

Now, here's an interesting one for a number of reasons. I initially spotted this in another newspaper but there's a report of the inquest in the Daily Telegraph on this site so it's easier for me to copy and paste it (with a couple of bits highlighted in bold by me).

Daily Telegraph, Thursday, 13 September 1888

"THE AFFAIR AT BLACKFRIARS. - Yesterday afternoon Mr. G. P. Wyatt, deputy coroner for North-East Surrey, held an inquiry at the King Henry VIII. Tavern, High-street, Lambeth, respecting the death of Georgina Byrne, aged 34 years, lately residing at 42A, Broad-street, Canterbury, widow of the late Troop-sergeant-major Byrne, of the 1st Dragoon Guards, stationed at Canterbury. Inspector Garland watched the case on behalf of the Chief Commissioner of Police. Mr. Mathew Nelson, a retired officer from the artillery, identified the deceased as his daughter. Police-constable Duffin, 73 L, said he was on duty in the Blackfriars-road when he saw a crowd, and two persons raising a woman from the ground. One of them said, "I am her husband. I will go for a doctor." The witness did not see him again. He removed the deceased to St. Thomas's Hospital, where she was seen by a medical man and pronounced to be dead. There was a pair of boots in the parcel that had been given to him, together with the address of a tradesman in Canterbury. On the body were 2 10s in gold and a gold watch and chain. The deceased was well dressed. A sovereign fell out of her umbrella when the witness opened it at the mortuary. The house surgeon at St. Thomas's Hospital said he had examined the body of the deceased, but could find no traces of violence. Death, in his opinion, was due to syncope. The jury returned a verdict to this effect."


It's not stated in this report but from other reports we know that the incident (and thus the death) occurred at about 11pm on Saturday 8 September. A familiar date!

Press reports of the incident said that the two men were seen by the constable "standing over" the woman who was lying on the pavement. They also said that both men had walked away from the scene but obviously it was clarified at the inquest that it was only one who left.

Is it possible that this man had pulled a knife causing the woman to suffer some form of heart attack?

Anyway, regardless of that, I'm just amused to record that PC Duffin of the L Division did not take the details of the man who supposedly left to fetch a doctor.

Clearly this man wasn't Mrs Byrne's husband if she was a widow. And who was the other man? Did he give evidence at inquest? If not, why not?

But two men seen standing over (and lifting) a dead woman from the ground in the street? Does it remind you of anything?

Where on earth was Charles Lechmere at the time?
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2017, 11:59 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Now, here's an interesting one for a number of reasons. I initially spotted this in another newspaper but there's a report of the inquest in the Daily Telegraph on this site so it's easier for me to copy and paste it (with a couple of bits highlighted in bold by me).

Daily Telegraph, Thursday, 13 September 1888

"THE AFFAIR AT BLACKFRIARS. - Yesterday afternoon Mr. G. P. Wyatt, deputy coroner for North-East Surrey, held an inquiry at the King Henry VIII. Tavern, High-street, Lambeth, respecting the death of Georgina Byrne, aged 34 years, lately residing at 42A, Broad-street, Canterbury, widow of the late Troop-sergeant-major Byrne, of the 1st Dragoon Guards, stationed at Canterbury. Inspector Garland watched the case on behalf of the Chief Commissioner of Police. Mr. Mathew Nelson, a retired officer from the artillery, identified the deceased as his daughter. Police-constable Duffin, 73 L, said he was on duty in the Blackfriars-road when he saw a crowd, and two persons raising a woman from the ground. One of them said, "I am her husband. I will go for a doctor." The witness did not see him again. He removed the deceased to St. Thomas's Hospital, where she was seen by a medical man and pronounced to be dead. There was a pair of boots in the parcel that had been given to him, together with the address of a tradesman in Canterbury. On the body were 2 10s in gold and a gold watch and chain. The deceased was well dressed. A sovereign fell out of her umbrella when the witness opened it at the mortuary. The house surgeon at St. Thomas's Hospital said he had examined the body of the deceased, but could find no traces of violence. Death, in his opinion, was due to syncope. The jury returned a verdict to this effect."


It's not stated in this report but from other reports we know that the incident (and thus the death) occurred at about 11pm on Saturday 8 September. A familiar date!

Press reports of the incident said that the two men were seen by the constable "standing over" the woman who was lying on the pavement. They also said that both men had walked away from the scene but obviously it was clarified at the inquest that it was only one who left.

Is it possible that this man had pulled a knife causing the woman to suffer some form of heart attack?

Anyway, regardless of that, I'm just amused to record that PC Duffin of the L Division did not take the details of the man who supposedly left to fetch a doctor.

Clearly this man wasn't Mrs Byrne's husband if she was a widow. And who was the other man? Did he give evidence at inquest? If not, why not?

But two men seen standing over (and lifting) a dead woman from the ground in the street? Does it remind you of anything?

Where on earth was Charles Lechmere at the time?
Have you been drinking, David?

Pierre
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:16 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Have you been drinking, David?
My dear boy, how utterly uncharacteristic of you to evidently fail to understand a post on this forum.
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:31 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
My dear boy, how utterly uncharacteristic of you to evidently fail to understand a post on this forum.
And how utterly uncharacteristic of you to evidently belittle people you speak to, Oscar.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:42 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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And how utterly uncharacteristic of you to evidently belittle people you speak to, Oscar.
My dear boy, for someone who has just (bizarrely) asked me if I have been drinking, you have been remarkably un-belittled.

But well, I'm sure I will regret this, but perhaps you can explain why you made that remark. What is it that I posted which caused you to conclude that I had been imbibing of some form of beverage with an alcoholic content.
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Old 08-31-2017, 12:49 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=David Orsam;427607]

Quote:
My dear boy, for someone who has just (bizarrely) asked me if I have been drinking, you have been remarkably un-belittled.
But you see for bizarre posts you will get bizarre questions.

Quote:
But well, I'm sure I will regret this, but perhaps you can explain why you made that remark. What is it that I posted which caused you to conclude that I had been imbibing of some form of beverage with an alcoholic content.
Since you are sure you will regret this, I will spare you the regret.
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  #7  
Old 08-31-2017, 12:55 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
But you see for bizarre posts you will get bizarre questions.
My dear boy, how utterly uncharacteristic of you to evidently fail to understand a post on this forum.
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  #8  
Old 08-31-2017, 01:30 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Now, here's an interesting one for a number of reasons. I initially spotted this in another newspaper but there's a report of the inquest in the Daily Telegraph on this site so it's easier for me to copy and paste it (with a couple of bits highlighted in bold by me).

Daily Telegraph, Thursday, 13 September 1888

"THE AFFAIR AT BLACKFRIARS. - Yesterday afternoon Mr. G. P. Wyatt, deputy coroner for North-East Surrey, held an inquiry at the King Henry VIII. Tavern, High-street, Lambeth, respecting the death of Georgina Byrne, aged 34 years, lately residing at 42A, Broad-street, Canterbury, widow of the late Troop-sergeant-major Byrne, of the 1st Dragoon Guards, stationed at Canterbury. Inspector Garland watched the case on behalf of the Chief Commissioner of Police. Mr. Mathew Nelson, a retired officer from the artillery, identified the deceased as his daughter. Police-constable Duffin, 73 L, said he was on duty in the Blackfriars-road when he saw a crowd, and two persons raising a woman from the ground. One of them said, "I am her husband. I will go for a doctor." The witness did not see him again. He removed the deceased to St. Thomas's Hospital, where she was seen by a medical man and pronounced to be dead. There was a pair of boots in the parcel that had been given to him, together with the address of a tradesman in Canterbury. On the body were 2 10s in gold and a gold watch and chain. The deceased was well dressed. A sovereign fell out of her umbrella when the witness opened it at the mortuary. The house surgeon at St. Thomas's Hospital said he had examined the body of the deceased, but could find no traces of violence. Death, in his opinion, was due to syncope. The jury returned a verdict to this effect."


It's not stated in this report but from other reports we know that the incident (and thus the death) occurred at about 11pm on Saturday 8 September. A familiar date!

Press reports of the incident said that the two men were seen by the constable "standing over" the woman who was lying on the pavement. They also said that both men had walked away from the scene but obviously it was clarified at the inquest that it was only one who left.

Is it possible that this man had pulled a knife causing the woman to suffer some form of heart attack?

Anyway, regardless of that, I'm just amused to record that PC Duffin of the L Division did not take the details of the man who supposedly left to fetch a doctor.

Clearly this man wasn't Mrs Byrne's husband if she was a widow. And who was the other man? Did he give evidence at inquest? If not, why not?

But two men seen standing over (and lifting) a dead woman from the ground in the street? Does it remind you of anything?

Where on earth was Charles Lechmere at the time?
Firstly David, why did Pierre call you Oscar? Something to do with Wilde I assume?

Secondly, could the reason that PC Duffin of L Division didn't take the details of the man who left be that no report of a crime or an accident had been made and therefore, as per the Police Code of the time, he was under no obligation to do so

Very suspicious that he said that he was the husband of a widow! It sounds like a story from Tales Of The Unexpected.

Is there anymore information to be found David?
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2017, 01:42 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Firstly David, why did Pierre call you Oscar? Something to do with Wilde I assume?
He is, of course, awestruck by my eloquence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Secondly, could the reason that PC Duffin of L Division didn't take the details of the man who left be that no report of a crime or an accident had been made and therefore, as per the Police Code of the time, he was under no obligation to do so
I agree entirely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Very suspicious that he said that he was the husband of a widow! It sounds like a story from Tales Of The Unexpected.
Yes, he didn't just walk away. He lied then walked away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Is there anymore information to be found David?
I am trusting members of this forum to get to work and provide.
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  #10  
Old 08-31-2017, 02:10 PM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
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Granted it seems unlikely in this case but a widow could subsequently have lived with another man as his wife though not married (indeed if she was the recipient of a widow's pension re-marrying might not be the best idea). All very suspicious it seems.
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