Relatives

[John Bennett]

I don't know if plumes are the problem, John. I've seen reference in the 80s to sailors bringing prized Ostrich feathers for East End prostitutes in particular, myself. I think it's the width of the brim of the hat that is thought to be too wide? Tall was in apparently.

Hi Debs

I know what you're saying. Your last post has made my point better than I did!

[Cogidubnus]

The "dangling brooch" reminds me of one of those functional pieces of jewellery designed as multi-purpose - ie pieces detach as required for use as smaller brooches, ear ring pendants etc...they're usually quite good quality though aren't they?

Dave

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Looking at the Kelly photo, I can see nothing wrong with the period dress/hat. Debra's picture sums that up.
The more I view , the more I am swinging towards authenticity , but that is human nature, I guess it must be harder for Chris who would have that face to haunt his instincts, and with no definite answer.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

The "dangling brooch" reminds me of one of those functional pieces of jewellery designed as multi-purpose - ie pieces detach as required for use as smaller brooches, ear ring pendants etc...they're usually quite good quality though aren't they?

Dave

I've don't think I've ever seen one of those either, to be honest.

But talking of 'good quality', I was just looking through the 'well dressed' Victorian ladies section of the site Miss M mentioned earlier in the thread (Vaughn collection)and saw a quite similar style of brooch, similar in that it's something dangling from a brooch fixed high at the throat).The photo was dated 1888.
I know that someone could wear a brooch passed down to them from any earlier era, so it doesn't help much, but just thought I'd post the pic to show there were similar items around in the 1880s too.

[Robert]

Blimey, Debs, her hair is well swept back. I don't see the point of them having long hair if they're going to hide it, but there you go. Very perplexing.

[Debra A]

An early 'Croydon facelift', Robert?

[Robert]

Debs, I just know that Caz is going to pitch in here.

[Debra A]

Caz will obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, Robert, as she has no need to resort to such measures.

Pssst, Robert....do you think I'll get away with it now?

[Robert]

Quite so, Debs. Caz has no need of such things.

Sign in plastic surgery clinic : Facelifters will be prosecuted.

[Archaic]

Impressions On the Purported Photo of Mary

Hi everyone. I've just come across this thread and have been reading all the posts and examining the photos with interest.

First of, congratulations and many thanks to Chris for sharing these photos with us! I'd also like to thank the family who provided them. I fully understand their reticence and I hope we can all respect it.

I have a background in antique clothing hats and jewelry, and my first impression upon looking at the photo purported to be Mary is that it dates from about 1895 to the early 1900's, as Miss Marple contends.
That said, there were some wide-brimmed ostrich plumes hats in the 1880's. They were called 'Gainsboroughs', a style which originated in the 18th C. portraits by the artist Gainsborough and which periodically reappeared in different incarnations, most famously in the "picture hats" and enormous "Merry Widow" hats of the 1905-1910 period.

Whistler painted 'Portrait of Lady Meux' in 1881, and the subject is wearing an elegant broad-brimmed hat. (Image attached) Though it must be said it is of a somewhat different style than in the photo provided- the brim is not so upswept, and it doesn't have an ostrich plume. Many hats in the 1880's did have ostrich plumes, though in general they are not suited to era's typically small-brimmed hats. Hat styles are usually composed of "variations on a theme", with many thousands of inspired milliners vying for business. In general the hats and their feathers became larger and more flamboyant as the 20th C. dawned.

The most popular hats in the 1880's were variations of the toque, a small-brimmed or brimless hat which better suited the tight restrictive clothing of the era. (I wish we could see the sleeves in this photo! As Miss Marple pointed out, the sleeves would be an enormous aid in dating this photo.)

The lady appears to be wearing 3 pieces of jewelry, starting with a necklace of very small pearls. These were popular for decades, so aren't much help in dating the photo, but they do indicate that the wearer was fairly well to do. The pearls, though small, would have been real; faux pearls came in much later, in the 1920's with Coco Chanel.

There's a filagreed oval brooch at the neckline of her blouse. The brooch looks 1895-1905 to me, but it would greatly help to date it if I could see its clasp, and whether it is gold or silver.

The piece hanging down from slightly left of center does appear to be some sort of fob as Debs suggested. If you look at the top of it you can see a T-bar. T-bars were hooked through button-holes, etc, to anchor fobs, which were originally intended to ornament pocket watches. (The watch was worn in the pocket, so it was the chain and fob that showed.)
Ladies began to wear small pendant watches, but the circular parts of the fob shown appear too small to be even a very small round pendant watch. I've seen quite small ones from the 1890's, but they are about an inch around. Also, a watch worn so high would seem rather difficult to read, and if it were to bounce upward it would hit one in the face!

Ladies' watches were usually worn on chains and later in the 1890's-1912 period on "watch-pin chatelletes" pinned to the skirt: a pre-WWI version of the wristwatch that allowed women and girls to play various sports like golf and tennis without their watch getting in the way. If the fob in the photo is attached to the oval pin at the neck via a small chain, then it is a type of chatellete that I don't recall having seen before. Perhaps the photo was a special occasion, and the young lady wished to have her pretty fob in the portrait photo, so wore it in an unusual manner?

These are just my preliminary impressions, as I haven't had time to study the photo at length, and its jewelry details are rather indistinct. I'm just sort of "thinking out loud."

What most strikes me about the photo is that everything that the lady is wearing, from clothing to hat to jewelry, would have been rather costly.

What is the time period in which Mary was believed to have been in France or in the West End and presumably in a better financial state? Prior to the year 1885 I believe. So that sets the date for the hat, clothing and jewelry back a few years more from the year 1888 in which she died.

I'll be very interested to hear what a costume expert from the Victoria & Albert Museum might have to say.

Best regards,
Archaic

PS: I forgot to mention, the short frizzled bangs in the photo of Bridget are an example of what was called "the Alexandra Fringe"- a hair style characterized by short bangs popularized by Princess (later Queen) Alexander. It was styled with hot "tongs", an early type of hair-iron. Sometimes they were curled "poodle" style, other times just "frizzled". (I can almost smell the burning hair as I type that!) It was most popular in the 1880's and 1890's. I have a family photo from about 1890 that shows one of my Irish forebears wearing an 'Alexandra Fringe' at her wedding in New York.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Archaic
many thanks indeed for you very helpful and detailed posting
Below which may help is the item of jewellery enlarged from the best copy of the image I have
Chris

[Archaic]

re: The Jewelry

Hi Chris. Thank you for the enlargement, it's much clearer than I could get on my laptop.

I'm still puzzled by the jewelry; it almost looks like there is a broken link on the right hand side of the dangling fob-like piece. Do you see how at the end of the long rectangular stretch of the jewelry there appears to be a break, and the asymmetric piece at bottom right seems like it ought to be attached to something? I'll mull it over some more.

To my eye the oval brooch shows the kind of filagreed or "pierced" work I would associate with a somewhat later date than 1885 or so. Its very light color is also suggestive of Sterling Silver rather than Gold. White metals were very popular in the later Art Nouveau / Edwardian period, 1890's-1911, and in the 1920's. Prior to the 1890's, yellow metals such as yellow gold or the pinkish gold called 'rose gold' were more popular and much more common. However, the apparently light color of the jewelry may just be a trick of the light because the metal reflected the photographer's flash. (I'm no photography expert, so maybe someone else will know.)

A friend asked me why seeing the clasp could make a difference in dating a piece of jewelry. When you're dating a piece of antique jewelry one of the first things you do is look at the clasp. The modern "safety clasp" dates to about 1900. It has a little wheel that rotates, catches, and locks the pin securely in place so it can't open and fall off one's clothing. Prior to that, jewelry had a simple C-shaped clasp that did not lock.

19th C. Mid-Victorian jewelry is characterized by a C-clasp and a very long, very sharp shank (pin) that extends farther than the edge of the jewelry item. (If you've ever picked such a piece up, you'll know, because it's easy to accidentally stab your finger with the sharp pin!)

In the late 1890's various types of early safety clasps were tried and patented, such as the sliding Trombone Clasp. If this pin dates before the late 1890's-1900 it should have a plain C-clasp, without a safety catch. If it dates to the early-to-mid 1880's I would expects a fairly long, sharp pin.

But alas, we can't see those details!

Best regards,
Archaic

[lynn cates]

antique

Hello Bunny. Glad to see you posting. Hope you are well.

Your comments may help to date the photo more precisely.

"When you're dating a piece of antique jewelry one of the first things you do is look at the clasp."

Well, I once dated a piece of "antique jewellery"--wound up marrying her. (Heh-heh) And, yes, she had quite a clasp.

Cheers.
LC

[Archaic]

Poor Lynn, sounds like you'll be spending another night on the sofa...


Archaic

[Debra A]

My only hope is that all this dating the pic past 1890 means it's thought to be a fake, rather than it's supposedly MJK after 1888, alive and well....and some other poor girl butchered in her place.