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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Druitt, Montague John

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  #21  
Old 10-04-2014, 05:44 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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We have no evidence that places ANY of the suspects at any of the crimes scene's, so that is a wash.

And Druitt doesn't need to be placed in the East End, many modern suspects can't even be placed in London at the time.
Druitt did at least hold chambers a short walk away in the Minories, but any suspect could have rented a room somewhere in Whitechapel, a place to clean-up, which no-one would have known about.

Druitt does appear to be among the most deeply researched candidates and yet given his legal commitments & cricket schedules, nothing has surfaced which rules him out.
Is Druitt from the right class of person seen by Mrs Long in Hanbury St.?, could he have dressed down as the suspect seen by Lawende?, could he also have been nonchalant and not wore a disguise at all and been the Britannia-man/Bethnal-green-man (near the Kelly murder?).

Of course he could!

The "could-have's", as with all suspects, are all there is, so all bias aside we cannot rule him out.
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Last edited by Wickerman : 10-04-2014 at 05:46 AM.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2014, 05:58 AM
sepiae sepiae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan H View Post
To Sepia

Macnaghten spoke directly to the family, not second or third hand, or so he implies in his memoirs. We also have a veiled version of such a debriefing propagated to the public in the Edwardian era.

I believe the hands-on police sleuth discovered that the deceased man had confessed to a priest (ho was likely a family member too).

The chief checked out everything he could about this posthumous suspect, in the most minute detail, and, despite his not wanting it to be true for a number of personal and professional reasons/pressures, he judged it was true--a lucid confession by a guilty man.

Families are usually the last people to be convinced by the ghastly criminal truth about a fellow member. Not in this case--Druitt enters the extant record as the Ripper, albeit un-named, from the region in which he had grown up.

I appreciate that this is heresy as much of what is called 'Ripperology' hangs by a slender thread, e.g. 1.) that it was not solved, 2.) that this suspect could not have done it, and that 3.) Macnaghten--completely out of character--did not make a thorough and personal investigation of the appalling allegations against this drowned barrister.

In a sense this slender thread is Ripperology, and it is cut and voided if the above is shown to be a modern construct (beginning in 1923) totally at odds with the original sources.

Hi Jonathan H,

directly spoken/debriefing/confession:
could you reference these points, pls, Jonathan, as this information has truly escaped me, except for a vague memory of Macnaghten's contact with the family now [which might have been prompted ]?

family usually being the last to be convinced:
that really depends, entirely depends. Not all family-ties are good, solid and healthy. I'm occasionally dipping into a book, to stay in Victorian times for now, 'Inconvenient People: Lunacy, Liberty and the Mad-Doctors in Victorian England-Bodley Head' by Sarah Wise, which deals with unjust 'sectioning', and it reads at times like a chronicle of 'bad families', as it were apparently often family members [and spouses] doing their best at having sane relatives committed.

heresy:
I don't think of any of it in these terms. Can't think of an application of the word in this field, except outright confabulation, which is not how I think of the differing arguments here.

I won't be able to reply before Monday, though, got to shoot...
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  #23  
Old 10-04-2014, 06:09 AM
sepiae sepiae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
We have no evidence that places ANY of the suspects at any of the crimes scene's, so that is a wash.

And Druitt doesn't need to be placed in the East End, many modern suspects can't even be placed in London at the time.
Druitt did at least hold chambers a short walk away in the Minories, but any suspect could have rented a room somewhere in Whitechapel, a place to clean-up, which no-one would have known about.

Druitt does appear to be among the most deeply researched candidates and yet given his legal commitments & cricket schedules, nothing has surfaced which rules him out.
Is Druitt from the right class of person seen by Mrs Long in Hanbury St.?, could he have dressed down as the suspect seen by Lawende?, could he also have been nonchalant and not wore a disguise at all and been the Britannia-man/Bethnal-green-man (near the Kelly murder?).

Of course he could!

The "could-have's", as with all suspects, are all there is, so all bias aside we cannot rule him out.

Hi Wickerman,

not quite such a wash:
you're very right, we don't have evidence of any suspect being directly at the crime scene the moment a murder was committed - that would probably mean we have our man.
There is a difference, still, between being able to place someone with some certainty in the vicinity, and someone we can't, other than with mere possibility. With Druitt all we can say, he could have possibly made it. As you pointed out, all the 'could-haves'.
I asked for evidence directly in response to the 'any doubt' - because yes, doubt there is, in the very least.

Everyone, have a good weekend
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2014, 06:25 AM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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Why shouldn't baseless gossip emanate as well from the west country as anywhere else? As in 'poor old Druitt's boy, drowned himself y'know.' Suicide was considered a mortal sin in Victorian England as well as a crime, and something no-one of sound mind would contemplate.

From that you might have got speculation about the drowning. It was known there was 'lunacy' in Ann Druitt's family. Add to that perhaps, rumours about his dismissal from Valentine's school, which may have got about.

From there it's a hop, skip and a jump as far as rumour an innuendo go. A young man lost his mind, lives in London. Maybe he was 'Jack the Ripper!'? then 'Yes, he probably was!'
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2014, 07:07 AM
Jonathan H Jonathan H is offline
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To Sepiae

I will answer you later, chapter and verse.

To Wickerman

Of course, I agree.

To Rosella

No. I reject your post entirely.

I do not think that is how Sir Melville Macnaghten thought or acted at all. Not according to primary sources by him, on his behalf and about him.

He was not going to be bullied by pathetic rumors.

Because if it was really that simple, and that shallow, and that shrill, the Chief Constable would have disposed of the [posthumous] allegations against Druitt in an afternoon.

Instead, despite all the biases and pressures on him not to agree, he did agree with the family's horrific and bleak assessment.

And why shouldn't he? If Druitt confessed. That confession is either the truth or it was a delusion. It was judged by those in-the-know to be the former--unfortunately.
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  #26  
Old 10-04-2014, 07:28 AM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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If Druitt had confessed to his family, I would expect Macnaghten to use that exact word.

c.d.
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  #27  
Old 10-04-2014, 09:50 AM
Rosella Rosella is offline
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Those-in-the-know didn't include Anderson or Swanson, then? Just Macnaughten, who 'has a very clear idea' in 1913 and 'I have little doubt' in 1894, about Druitt as Jack, but never gives any full or clear explanation why he feels that way.

Anderson and Swanson felt just as strongly about their 'poor Polish Jew' being the Ripper.
The truth may be in a 1903 Pall Mall Gazette interview about JTR with Abberline, who shows the reporter recent documentary evidence that 'put the ignorance of Scotland Yard as to the perpetrator beyond a shadow of a doubt.'
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2014, 11:59 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Andersen View Post
He thought he was becoming like Mother.
I am just naturally cautious about accepting the contents of a 'suicide note' found by his brother.
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  #29  
Old 10-04-2014, 01:38 PM
pinkmoon pinkmoon is offline
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I can't see sir Melville naming Druitt without good cause he seems to be a very well respected police official I just can't see him coming up with Druitt based on a piece of gossip the "gossip" must have come from a very good source like Druitts family.
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2014, 03:19 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkmoon View Post
I can't see sir Melville naming Druitt without good cause he seems to be a very well respected police official I just can't see him coming up with Druitt based on a piece of gossip the "gossip" must have come from a very good source like Druitts family.
In his memoirs he does imply it was more than gossip.

(Re: the murderer's suicide)
"....certain facts, pointing to this conclusion, were not in possession of the police till some years after I became a detective officer".
Laying the Ghost of Jack the Ripper in, Days of my Years, 1913.

These 'facts' (if true) may be quite aside from the suspicions of his family.
If the family member(s) harboring those suspicions was, or incuded brother William, then that raises questions about that suicide note.
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Last edited by Wickerman : 10-04-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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