Stabbed in the throat...

[Suzi]

I have looked Sam!!! Yes it is a 3"cher although the exact 'er position is left open to imagination!!!

Gawd poor Martha that didn't carry her off though did it- and where's the--- 2nd photo??!!

Suz x

[Fisherman]

Of course it is a cut! Three inches long and only one inch deep, it goes without saying, I should think. The fact that Killeen speaks of "penetration" here does not necessarily mean that it had anything to do with stabbing - the skin and outer layers of fat on the stomach WERE penetrated.

Such a wound can only be the result of either someone deliberately cutting or lashing out with the blade - and the latter alternative seems very unlikely considering that the other 37 wounds are all stabs - and not by stabbing in the general meaning, or any other meaning for that matter!

The best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

When did Sugden's new edition come out? Does it contain significantly more information?

Hi c.d.,

This revised paperback came out in 2002. I'm afraid I don't know to what extent and in which areas it contains significantly more information.

Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Of course it is a cut! Three inches long and only one inch deep, it goes without saying, I should think.

Take a pointed kitchen knife to a melon, stab at a surface that's curving away from you, and think again. Then slice up melon, sprinkle with brown sugar, serve, and enjoy

[FrankO]

Thanks for that, Frank. Sod's Law - I didn't look in Sugden!

You're welcome. It could happen to the best.

I would point out that "the lower portion of the body" still doesn't state explicitly that the 3" wound was in Tabram's genitals, although it might easily have been euphemism.

Could easily have been a euphemism, however, I doubt that. In a report about the Tabram murder, Swanson wrote: "Dr.Keeling of 68 Brick Lane was called, and examined the body and found thirty nine wounds on body, neck, and private part with a knife or dagger."

All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Could easily have been a euphemism, however, I doubt that.

I should have been more explicit, Frank - indeed, I meant "lower part of the body" could easily have been a euphemism for the genitalia. So, I was agreeing with you in advance... which is nice

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:
"Take a pointed kitchen knife to a melon, stab at a surface that's curving away from you, and think again. "

Done my thinking on this one, Sam, and much as I enjoy melons, I disagree. Tabram was clearly on her back when she received the thirty-seven stabs, and since there were no sounds, it stands to reason to believe that she was subdued, either by some form of suffocation (the protruding tongue on the pic, the clenched fists) or by a blow to the head (the effusion of blood) or a combination of these two.
After that the blade would have been sunk into an immobile body, and the listed stabs all seem to tell us that the stabber was handling his blade with gusto. I don´t see him making an uncontrolled, sweeping stab at her lower abdomen, almost missing it, Sam. It would involve an angle of the blade where it travelled almost parallel to the surface of her stomach, and no, I don´t buy it for a second.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[FrankO]

So, I was agreeing with you in advance... which is nice

Agreeing with me in advance... I'd welcome that, Gareth - but not too often, mind you. That would get boring soon...

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fish,

"Take a pointed kitchen knife to a melon, stab at a surface that's curving away from you, and think again. "

Done my thinking on this one, Sam, and much as I enjoy melons, I disagree.

You'll note that I suggested you did something first, and then think. Unless, of course, you can visualise what the consequent "wound" produced by a glancing knife-blow on the curved surface of a melon would look like - in which case, the doing would be optional, and the thinking sufficient to tell you all you need to know. I like a good old-fashioned Gendankenexperiment, now and then.

I don´t see him making an uncontrolled, sweeping stab at her lower abdomen

...and the other 38 wounds were precision-placed, is that it? Erm... OK

[Fisherman]

Sam, I have no trouble with you holding a different opinion on this subject. What I am saying though, is that it takes a lot of fantasy to believe in that wound of yours.
If I take a stab at a melon, there is a good chance that I will come up with the kind of wound you are speaking about. No question about it. Unless the melon was fixed by some means, it would be an awkward task to hit the small surface that allows for the knife not to make more of a cut than a stab.
But Martha Tabram was no melon, Sam! I think that the mapping of the wounds tells us that she was lying on her back when she was stabbed, and indeed she was found thus. That means that the portion of the body that can be described as the lower abdomen is to be found between her hip bones, and it was thus facing the sky in the position in which she was cut.
Now, if we were speaking of a cut/stab to a thigh or to the side of her body, it would be a different thing. Then we would have the kind of angle that may have produced the kind of wound you are suggesting.
But the lower abdomen on a woman lying flat on her back represents a surface that is facing the sky. And that means that the angle problem must be solved by an angled blade if you need to come up with "your" cut. And yes, it could have been done, but no, the probability is a very, very small one. Killeen tried to draw conclusions about which hand the killer used, and he did that using the fact that the blade hade travelled into Tabrams flesh at an approximate angle that was reproduced over and over again. Of course, he could have changed the angle at times, but to believe that he would change it dramatically enough to almost miss a stab at the lower abdomen, includes a belief that the blade travelled almost parallel to the floor at that particular stab.
Recognizing that it is not an impossibility, I suggest that it comes close to it anyway, Sam!

As for for what stabs were precision-placed, I suggest that you ponder the fact that the stabs to the genitals and neck struck comparatively small surfaces with many hits, and that, Sam, can well be described as being "precision-placed" to some extent. We are NOT speaking of a total frenzy in Tabrams case, with a flurry of stabs that could have ended up anywhere, I think you will have to admit that much. To my belief, though, there are only two wounds on her body that are actually precision-placed; the ones to the lower abdomen and the heart, respectively.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Fish,

Sam, I have no trouble with you holding a different opinion on this subject. What I am saying though, is that it takes a lot of fantasy to believe in that wound of yours

It really doesn't. If you're having difficulty with that, then you might have an imaginative blind-spot when it comes to three-dimensional geometry. If so, perhaps you should avoid bumpy surfaces for a while, or go stab a melon or two until the visual centres in your brain learn to compensate. Then slice melons, sprinkle with brown sugar, serve and enjoy!

On another tack - note that Killeen stated that Tabram had sustained 39 stab-wounds, not 38 stab-wounds and one cut.

[Dan Norder]

Take a pointed kitchen knife to a melon, stab at a surface that's curving away from you, and think again.

Martha Tabram may have been overweight, but she was certainly far from melon-shaped. Even the parts that would have slightly resembled a melon would have flattened out while was on her back on that landing.

Melons also have solid surfaces, unless a human body. The elasticity of human flesh means that any random horizontal movement of a blade will be somewhat lessened because the flesh on the exterior surface can just follow along with it until it reaches its limit and the cut can continue. The more fat there is on the body the more the flesh can move along with it.

A three inch long wound that's only an inch deep would certainly qualify as a cut, as it would have required more horizontal movement than vertical movement. Frankly I think the debating over a stab versus a cut in the first place is rather silly, as serial killers do not have a code of instructions stamped into their brains from some factory on how to properly go about murdering someone anyway. Jack the Ripper was more than capable of cutting and stabbing.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:
"It really doesn't."

Oh yes it does, Sam.

And much as I thank you for encouraging me to improve my three-dimensional geometry, I will once more tell you that a melon and a woman are two quite different things, the melon providing even more curved surfaces than the latter one.
As for Killeens statement that she had received thirty-nine stabs, it is a statement that also involves the vital information that one of the "stabs" displayed a length of three inches and a depth of merely one inch, conveniently enough on the surface under which the womb is hidden.
That goes a very long way to explain what was going on, I think.

It is also vital to keep in mind that Killeen must have set out trying to explain all the wounds as siblings. He must have been amazed to realize that there was a wound on the chest that could not possibly have been inflicted by the same weapon as the others. As for the wound to the abdomen, though, he may have reasoned the way you do, and tried to force it in with the other 37.
It is understandable if he chose that path, but it must of course be open to questioning too.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

I will once more tell you that a melon and a woman are two quite different things, the melon providing even more curved surfaces than the latter one.

...not the ones I've known

Seriously, though, forget melons and women - difficult, I know - or even curved surfaces for a moment, and consider a flat bodily surface being hit "point-first" by a dagger, the blade being withdrawn in a similar manner, at 90° to the flesh. The "impact crater" left by such a missile will be pretty much as wide as the width of the blade, say 1½ inches.

Now, if you decrease the angle of a stab from its "point-first" configuration, the entry and exit wounds will get longer, as more of the cutting edge of the knife, rather than just the point, comes into contact with the flesh. The shallower the angle at which the point connects, the longer will be the "wake" left behind by the blade. It doesn't take too much of a departure from the vertical for the dagger to leave behind a 2" or 3" wound in the skin.

If the angle of impact were shallow enough, and the stab inflicted with sufficient force, then the length of the apparent "cut" thus produced could almost be as long as the length of the entire blade - 5 or 6 inches, perhaps - whilst not penetrating too deeply into the skin beneath.

The curvature of the flesh around the lower part of the abdomen would present a naturally acute angle to any blade wielded upon it from above, making it all the more likely that a stab aimed at this area would leave behind a "comet-tail" longer than the width of the blade.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn writes:
"The shallower the angle at which the point connects, the longer will be the "wake" left behind by the blade. It doesn't take too much of a departure from the vertical for the dagger to leave behind a 2" or 3" wound in the skin.

If the angle of impact were shallow enough, and the stab inflicted with sufficient force, then the length of the apparent "cut" thus produced could almost be as long as the length of the entire blade - 5 or 6 inches, perhaps - whilst not penetrating too deeply into the skin beneath."

I know, Sam. I really, really do.
But if you examine Killeens protocol of it all, you will find just the one wound that displayed this shape. And it was not as if the other ones all varied from point-on ones to wounds more resembling the one in the lower abdomen. If that had been the case, there would have been no need to mention this wound specifically.
It was mentioned, of course, because it varied. It was the only one that did not display the typical stabbing angle, I would say.
Therefore, it stands to reason to make the assumption that it was NOT a stab gone wrong, but a cut. Although we are not speaking certainties here, we can speak about probabilities, and the way I see it, given the succesfull outcome of all the other stabs, and given the fact that a man who liked to cut in lower abdomens was on the prowl, there is no reaon to cling to tightly to minor opportunities, unless you feel you need to. If so, I am sure that we can come up with an impressive number of alternative explanations to why she ended up with a cut in her abdomen in Londons East End in August of 1888.
Me, I think it´s more or less a giveaway.

The best, Sam!
Fisherman