Different Killers

[Batman]

Not a regular

What kind of a regular patron of the club would attempt to commit a murder in the yard given that the steward of that Workers' Club, Louis Diemschutz, was returning by 1am and given that the place had a high activity of people?

Regulars would expect some frequency of movement in and out of that yard. Yet Liz Stride's body was discovered within minutes of her murder, suggesting not only was there activity in the yard around that time, but that he wasn't able to finish his signature due to bad planning.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

One problem with your scenario is that it would indicate a conspiracy--Club members claimed NOT to have seen Liz.

But let's waive that for now. My main problem is that your description pretty much fits a Liz and assailant who are going INTO the yard. If a sequence can be derived for going OUT, I would feel MUCH more confident.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I've been thinking about this, although as I noted earlier crime scene geography is not my strongest point. Okay, I think in an earlier post I speculated that the killer may have moved Stride's body for posing purposes. However, to be honest I'm not at all happy with this scenario as it would take time, increasing the chance the killer would be interrupted, and it might create noise, thus alerting someone from the club.

Of course, you have also argued that Stride's body position could have been affected by her being spun round as her killer launches his assault.

Obviously a scenario that involves Stride exiting the yard with her killer right behind her presents difficulties, not least because her apparently relaxed state suggests she was not immediately aware of any danger.

Okay, expanding my previous BS man theory. We have Stride entering the yard with her killer after being tricked into believing they're going to the club. I suppose one possibility, which I believe we discussed earlier, is that Liz dropped some of the cachous, which she turned round to retrieve and her assailant struck. That also seems unlikely- why would she be bothered about retrieving something so trivial? And why did the man not strike earlier? Of course, she could have turned round to retrieve something else she'd dropped, or her assailant could have purposely dropped something, so that Stride might turn round to retrieve it, but again I'm not really happy with that either. As I noted on an earlier post, if he just wanted to get behind Stride why not just slightly slow his pace?

The most plausible theory I can come up with is that Stride abruptly changed her mind. Thus, based upon the earlier scenario she enters the yard with BS man, carrying the cachous he's just given to her. She believes they're going to the club but, of course, he's lured her into a trap. However, he doesn't strike straight away as he wants to get deeper into the yard: it'll be darker and further away from the gate, therefore reducing the risk of a passer-by noticing anything.

Unfortunately for him things start to go wrong straight away. After entering the gate Stride has second thoughts, perhaps sensing things aren't quite right. Maybe it's something he says; perhaps she senses him reaching into his pocked for something, whilst drawing himself up close behind her, almost breathing down her neck, poised to strike; perhaps just a general sense of foreboding, after all, the man had recently behaved aggressively towards her. Could it be a combination of these factors?

She stops suddenly, hesitates, and then informs BS man that she's changed her mind. She quickly turns round, still holding the cachous, leaving him no other alternative but to strike immediately.

What do you think? Maybe just too much like a film script!

[John G]

What kind of a regular patron of the club would attempt to commit a murder in the yard given that the steward of that Workers' Club, Louis Diemschutz, was returning by 1am and given that the place had a high activity of people?

Regulars would expect some frequency of movement in and out of that yard. Yet Liz Stride's body was discovered within minutes of her murder, suggesting not only was there activity in the yard around that time, but that he wasn't able to finish his signature due to bad planning.

Hi Batman,

Yes, as I think I suggested earlier this would be risky. A regular would also run the risk of being recognized, i.e. if he was seen on Berner Street or the general locality with Stride. Also if the murder was planned, surely there had to be a better location, or at least a better night, to stage a murder. That's why I'm starting to think this was more likely an improvised location. Of course, it might not have been pre-planned, Stride might simply have arranged to meet someone at the club and an argument ensued. But why did nobody hear this argument? And why was Stride relaxed enough afterwards to turn her back on her killer and to start eating the cachous?

[Batman]

That's why I'm starting to think this was more likely an improvised location.

Here is a simple question. Is the above consistent with Schwartz's witness statement or not?

[lynn cates]

removal

Hello Errata. Thanks.

But without open legs, could the uterus be removed? If no, perhaps necessary?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

aware

Hello Batman.

Would a mere attendee do?

Would a killer be aware of Dimshits' arrival time?

Two others claimed to be in the yard at 12.40. yes, it is an area of high activity. Certainly NOT a venue for a crafty sexual serial killer who plans.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello John. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

Let's suppose that he posed the body--for whatever reason. Obviously it was done post mortem. Hence, it obviates ALL possible explanatory value of cuts vs interruption. (Ie, when I have asked various and sundry why, if Liz died by the same hand as Polly and Annie, 1. she lacked the double cuts and 2. why her single wound was not so deep as theirs. The reply has often been along the lines of, Well, he was interrupted. But if he stopped cutting and THEN moved the body, interruption has nothing to do with the number or depth of cuts.)

"Obviously a scenario that involves Stride exiting the yard with her killer right behind her presents difficulties, not least because her apparently relaxed state suggests she was not immediately aware of any danger."

Yes, and THIS is my bottom line. (Wish EVERYONE found it obvious.)

". . . but again I'm not really happy with that either. As I noted on an earlier post, if he just wanted to get behind Stride why not just slightly slow his pace?"

Yes, and again, this is going OUT of the yard.

And IF Liz had changed her mind, that would account for the sudden exit. But she must--as you point out--be relaxed and confident enough to take a cashou from her pocket.

General sense of foreboding? That would work well PROVIDED she reacted customarily. In other words, she should be walking east fairly rapidly WITHOUT any thought of cachous.

You refer to her "still holding the cachous." Where/when did they first come into her hand?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

On a scale of planning 1 to 10...

Denis Rader (BTK) would be 8+. Yet even he did some things spontaniously.
Ted Bundy would be 7+. Yet even he did some things spontaniously.
Peter Sutcliffe would be a 7+. Yet he found his victims randomly from time to time.
I give JtR about a 3+. They took him to where they would die.

None of the above are masterminds. All should have been caught long before they started becoming serial except maybe Rader who operated almost always on a well planned schedule... but even he spontaneously went elsewhere on the spot when one operation failed. Bundy was seen many times and witnesses identified him in court. Sutcliffe.. well his composite(s) [plural] was everywhere and a dead-on likeness too.

The bottom line is that they are not masterminds. Not above average intelligence. Not highly skilled. Often average people who got lucky... and then obviously not, because they got caught, except for one of them.

I think one of the keys to JtR success is that he looked mostly like everyone else, dressed like everyone else, behaved like everyone else and so wouldn't be very conspicuous at all. If JtR is found, we will all likely say 'who is that' and he will look as boring as the above did.

[Batman]

I have asked various and sundry why, if Liz died by the same hand as Polly and Annie, 1. she lacked the double cuts and 2. why her single wound was not so deep as theirs. The reply has often been along the lines of, Well, he was interrupted. But if he stopped cutting and THEN moved the body, interruption has nothing to do with the number or depth of cuts.)

Evolution of MO. Keppel describes this as do most other forensic papers on JtR. The historical record also demonstrates it.

[lynn cates]

sync

Hello Batman.

"Is the above consistent with Schwartz's witness statement or not?"

Although not asked of me, please permit a reply.

It most certainly is NOT, provided, of course that Schwartz is taken full strength as, I believe he must be--at least initially, until one begins to find discrepancies.

Israel seems to describe a tipsy bloke who, in a chance encounter, gets into a fracas with a young lady, and the story allows the human mind to fill in the blanks with an eventual throat cutting.

And, although disliking to advert to a television programme, I recall a Columbo episode with a similar scenario where an illusionist, who worked with a guillotine, was "accidentally" decapitated. It all worked well--until it was noticed that the decapitated chap, who was ostensibly lying down making an adjustment, screwdriver in hand, had a Phillips head implement, whereas the screw he was supposedly adjusting had a straight edge. Clever, but the "story" was not in sync with the reality. (Yes, I know--TV.)

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Israel seems to describe a tipsy bloke who, in a chance encounter, gets into a fracas with a young lady, and the story allows the human mind to fill in the blanks with an eventual throat cutting.

Investigators in Ted Bundy's homicides where completely in the blind about how on earth a stranger was able to get women to approach him and go with him, completely unafraid of this man.

What Ted Bundy did was to wear a cast on his arm and try to carry something to his car with great difficulty. They would go to him or he would ask for help.

Edmund Kemper would simply change his glasses to look like a nerd. It was that easy for him.

I think JtR pretended to be more drunk than what he actually was, giving his victims a false sense of security and a possible mark for pickpocketing/stealing from.

I think Stride was quick in not liking this fellow. She refused him. That was the catalyst for the attack.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello John. Thanks.

One problem with your scenario is that it would indicate a conspiracy--Club members claimed NOT to have seen Liz.

But let's waive that for now. My main problem is that your description pretty much fits a Liz and assailant who are going INTO the yard. If a sequence can be derived for going OUT, I would feel MUCH more confident.

Cheers.
LC

Heres one for ya Lynn...Liz Stride is waiting in the passageway for someone to come outside to meet her, or back outside...she is approached by a meeting straggler or a hired security thug, who is also in the passageway having a smoke... neighbours testified that often happened after meetings even after 1am...she rebuffs him rudely. She has a small clutch of breath sweeteners in her hand at the time....indicating a possible romantic interest in the person who is waiting for...since she is completely unattached, that occurred earlier in the same week. The thug thinks she might be out "earning", figures his money is as good as whomever she is waiting for and stands before her while she has her back to the club wall inside the gates. He pokes her chest and threatens her...accounting for her bruising seen in the pm...she begins to realize that this fellow is intent on casuing her trouble, and she shoves him back and attempts to "stride"...sorry...toward the open gates, still clutching, now more tightly, the sweeteners. He grabs her scarf from behind, pulls back and twists it to his left, causing her to list towards the wall backward, off balance. He reaches forward with his available hand..not sure about predominant hand here, but I believe right fits the scenario...and slips the knife that is in it under her chin and across the top edge of her scarf. As he lets go of the scarf with his left hand he is slicing her throat from left to right...trailing off in depth as she falls.

That, for me, is a perfectly plausible scenario that both abides by the accepted evidence at the Inquest and addresses her being there in the first place. It allows for the club to need to "massage" the statements so that no-one relevant timewise sees or hears anything or anyone. Later that becomes a moot point, when a Jewish local man who is a friend of the editor of the Arbeter Fraint printed in the yard comes forward with a story of the victims assault outside the gates and likely by a gentile.

Again, Im not saying its the answer, but it sure works with what is real and known here. And most importantly, it explains why there is no attempt whatsoever to manipulate the body in any way after it hit the ground. The man had no post mortem agenda, hence, he wasn't the man that killed Annie...he just had a minute of temper induced insanity, likely including alcohol. That's why I favour a hired thug...which is on record for that nights event. Extra security had been hired when Morris had been scheduled to talk that night, because of the threat of violence by many locals opposed to his dogma.

Cheers

[John G]

Heres one for ya Lynn...Liz Stride is waiting in the passageway for someone to come outside to meet her, or back outside...she is approached by a meeting straggler or a hired security thug, who is also in the passageway having a smoke... neighbours testified that often happened after meetings even after 1am...she rebuffs him rudely. She has a small clutch of breath sweeteners in her hand at the time....indicating a possible romantic interest in the person who is waiting for...since she is completely unattached, that occurred earlier in the same week. The thug thinks she might be out "earning", figures his money is as good as whomever she is waiting for and stands before her while she has her back to the club wall inside the gates. He pokes her chest and threatens her...accounting for her bruising seen in the pm...she begins to realize that this fellow is intent on casuing her trouble, and she shoves him back and attempts to "stride"...sorry...toward the open gates, still clutching, now more tightly, the sweeteners. He grabs her scarf from behind, pulls back and twists it to his left, causing her to list towards the wall backward, off balance. He reaches forward with his available hand..not sure about predominant hand here, but I believe right fits the scenario...and slips the knife that is in it under her chin and across the top edge of her scarf. As he lets go of the scarf with his left hand he is slicing her throat from left to right...trailing off in depth as she falls.

That, for me, is a perfectly plausible scenario that both abides by the accepted evidence at the Inquest and addresses her being there in the first place. It allows for the club to need to "massage" the statements so that no-one relevant timewise sees or hears anything or anyone. Later that becomes a moot point, when a Jewish local man who is a friend of the editor of the Arbeter Fraint printed in the yard comes forward with a story of the victims assault outside the gates and likely by a gentile.

Again, Im not saying its the answer, but it sure works with what is real and known here. And most importantly, it explains why there is no attempt whatsoever to manipulate the body in any way after it hit the ground. The man had no post mortem agenda, hence, he wasn't the man that killed Annie...he just had a minute of temper induced insanity, likely including alcohol. That's why I favour a hired thug...which is on record for that nights event. Extra security had been hired when Morris had been scheduled to talk that night, because of the threat of violence by many locals opposed to his dogma.

Cheers

Hello Michael,

But wouldn't Liz have dropped the cachous as she "shoves him back"? This also implies a major conspiracy as what you're clearly describing is a serious altercation with the "thug". I mean it's surely inconceivable that no one in the club would have heard this, I.e Mrs D, let alone Fanny Mortimer. And why savagely slit her throat over such a trivial matter? Considering this was such an exceptionally rare crime the man would have to have been psychotic! In any event, I can only imagine that he would have felt provoked to take such drastic action, especially considering the serious risk of getting caught in such an unsuitable location for a murder, if a major argument had preceded the attack. Why did no one hear this? Why didn't Stride cry out as he must have "poked her Chest" pretty hard to cause the bruising?

If security guards were patrolling the building why was this not mentioned by PC Smith, Mortimer or any club member? Were they all involved in the conspiracy?

If the club was involved in a conspiracy then why did they say that if there had been any kind of argument they would have heard it? Surely it would have been easier to argue that they were signing so loudly a riot could have occurred unnoticed!

Even Danny Mortimer stated that the stewards wife must have heard any argument, particularly as the window was open. Was Mortimer therefore part of the conspiracy? Had she been "bought off"?

The problem is once you go down the road of conspiracy theories almost any scenario can be imagined. Maybe if we're taking this approach we should start taking Stephen Knight a little more seriously!

[John G]

Hello Batman.

"Is the above consistent with Schwartz's witness statement or not?"

Although not asked of me, please permit a reply.

It most certainly is NOT, provided, of course that Schwartz is taken full strength as, I believe he must be--at least initially, until one begins to find discrepancies.

Israel seems to describe a tipsy bloke who, in a chance encounter, gets into a fracas with a young lady, and the story allows the human mind to fill in the blanks with an eventual throat cutting.

And, although disliking to advert to a television programme, I recall a Columbo episode with a similar scenario where an illusionist, who worked with a guillotine, was "accidentally" decapitated. It all worked well--until it was noticed that the decapitated chap, who was ostensibly lying down making an adjustment, screwdriver in hand, had a Phillips head implement, whereas the screw he was supposedly adjusting had a straight edge. Clever, but the "story" was not in sync with the reality. (Yes, I know--TV.)

Cheers.
LC

Isn't this just the scenario advocated by Michael in Post 777? Also my previous post should read Fanny Mortimer not Danny Mortimer! I do hate predictive text!

[Batman]

I think there is good evidence to show that the largest haul of potential suspects and witnesses came about over Stride because investigators believed there where enough people around. Begg suggests Swanson had Pipeman cleared as prior to saying they don't suspect the 2nd man he mentions the above haul and interrogations. A list of this haul is prime historical data if ever found and is still actively sought over today.