"Crime Scene" Sketch.

[Monty]

No Trevor, there isn't.

You know as well as I do Trevor that soliciting women try to keep out of sight. Any sniff of a uniform (which would have been regular) or a private (and some CID stood out as much then as they do today) and she retreats down Church passage or towards Aldgate till they had passed.

If she did double back from her lodgings, then Goulston Street was off the natural route.

For what its worth, a PC who worked Aldgate stated he recognised Eddowes as she walked the area often. We do not know if this is Robinson, Simmons, Harvey, Watkins or Holland.

Nor do we know if he saw her the night she was murdered. What this tells us, if true, is that Eddowes was known by sight in the area. However it doesn't mean that just because she wasn't seen doesn't mean she wasn't there.

We all know she was there eventually.

Monty

[lynn cates]

flying

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"Up to something? According to Kelly he and Kate had been hop-picking in Kent for several weeks."

And that is the first problem. I read a news report that the hops harvest was so bad that people were going back to London--and that two weeks before.

"They supposedly walked 35 miles in one day - because...? Because they were in a hurry?"

Because they were in better shape than I am in. (heh-heh)

"There had also been no Ripper murders during the three weeks prior to their return after which (allegedly) Kate had boasted of knowing the identity of the killer."

And so John's story about being worried about "the knife" falls flat. The story about Kate may be apochryphal.

"How might you suddenly learn the identity of a killer who had been inactive for several weeks? By spending time in his company in an environment where he might have dropped his guard momentarily?"

Or if you had charred for someone and seen (and taken) a bit of evidence?

"A day or two later the Ripper strikes again, Kate is the victim (or one of two) and has strange facial mutilations, including to the eyes and one ear."

Precisely.

"Did JtR also go hop-picking, I wonder?"

Doubtful, in my mind.

"It would be one possible explanation for three weeks with no murder."

As would his being sent to Grove Hall (heh-heh)

"If you'd been to Kent and something had happened while you were there to cause you to suspect a particular individual - and if you mistakenly thought there was a reward - what would you do? Get back to London a.s.a.p. and head for Fleet Street?"

And once you look towards Fleet st, much becomes clear.

"As I said, just a wild flight of fancy - but if they were "up to something"?'

Not a bad start. But keep going.

Cheers.
LC

[Roy Corduroy]

Hello Roy. Just an elderly dosser? Hmm, then why all the, er, miscorrespondences with the truth?

Start with his pawning story. What's wrong with it?

Tell me how anything John Kelly said affects her murder. Or no, just one thing. Just one, Lynn. Or Simon. Explain to me the significance. Draw a straight line between any one thing he said and her murder. And tell me why it matters.

Roy

ps In fact, you can use the entire lifetime of John Kelly. Not just what he said at the time. Tell me one thing in his whole life he did or said that had any affect on the murder of Catherine Eddowes.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Bridewell

What reason was there to notice her? Until she was killed she was just another drab.

Already answered that in my post but if she was soliciting from whence she left the police station as some suggest surely that might have brought her to the attention of at least one officer perhaps.

As she wasnt noticed it tends to suggest that she was not in and around the main areas but in an around the back streets.

Do you not see this as being perhaps a newspaper's garbled version of the Lawende sighting on Church Passage? "In a direction leading away from the lodging house where she was staying" could be in any direction, couldn't it? The phrase is effectively meaningless.

Well its in The A-Z they wrote it they got it from somewhere.

Why not say in the direction of the area where she lived that would be more in line with what you are inferring.

This like most things can be interpeted in many ways depending on which account people want to accept. But 10-12 mins walk away is quite some distance to be saying away from the direction. To me I interpret that to mean she was seen near to her lodgings.

But you are right it could be a mish mash of the lawende sighting its a pity the authors didnt bother to expand on this.
Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

the point

Hello Roy. Oh, I see your point.

No, that's not what I am about. My point is that John knew what was going on. And that is why I am so keen to know what they were up to.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

No Trevor, there isn't.

You know as well as I do Trevor that soliciting women try to keep out of sight. Any sniff of a uniform (which would have been regular) or a private (and some CID stood out as much then as they do today) and she retreats down Church passage or towards Aldgate till they had passed.

If she did double back from her lodgings, then Goulston Street was off the natural route.

For what its worth, a PC who worked Aldgate stated he recognised Eddowes as she walked the area often. We do not know if this is Robinson, Simmons, Harvey, Watkins or Holland.

Nor do we know if he saw her the night she was murdered. What this tells us, if true, is that Eddowes was known by sight in the area. However it doesn't mean that just because she wasn't seen doesn't mean she wasn't there.

We all know she was there eventually.

Monty

I agree we know she was there in the end but where was she during the missing time.

I have to disagree with you if she had made her way back to Flower and Dean Street she would have virtually passed the archway in Goulston Street both en route and to get back to Mitre square area.

[Monty]

I agree we know she was there in the end but where was she during the missing time.

I have to disagree with you if she had made her way back to Flower and Dean Street she would have virtually passed the archway in Goulston Street both en route and to get back to Mitre square area.

That's your right Trevor,

I'll respect that and not engage in trying to change your mind. Mainly due to the timing of this change of heart.

However, if she changed her mind en route to Flowery Dean, at any stage, passing through Goulston Street would be off her natural route.

Now I cannot and will not state she did not go down Goulston off her own back, I will state that it wasn't on the swiftest and easiest router.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

That's your right Trevor,

I'll respect that and not engage in trying to change your mind. Mainly due to the timing of this change of heart.

However, if she changed her mind en route to Flowery Dean, at any stage, passing through Goulston Street would be off her natural route.

Now I cannot and will not state she did not go down Goulston off her own back, I will state that it wasn't on the swiftest and easiest router.

Monty

Well i hope you wont mind me clarifying my position

Yellow route is one of two ways she could have gone after leaving police station to go back to Flower and dean Street.

Green route show her quickest route back to Mitre Square .

As can be seen all routes pass almost by the Goulston St Archway.

[Monty]

No Trevor,

I don't mind.

Hutt stated clearly she turned left out of the door, you have her also turning right.

And the map you use is a few years after 88 however....

It is clear on the routes you draw that via Goulston Street isn't the quickest or most natural, there is doubling back.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

No Trevor,

I don't mind.

Hutt stated clearly she turned left out of the door, you have her also turning right.

And the map you use is a few years after 88 however....

It is clear on the routes you draw that via Goulston Street isn't the quickest or most natural, there is doubling back.

Monty

I accept what the officer said as to which way she was seen to go but again we do not know for sure where she went or in which direction she could have left the police station walked 10 yards and turned around and gone the other way. I have covered all possibilties.

I think if you study the map in much greater detail the routes are as accurate as they can be.

My point is that it would have been possible given the time available for her to decide to go home and at the very last minute nearer to Flower and Dean st she changed her mind and clearly it can be seen that had she made her way towards her lodgings she would have to have almost passed by the Archway and the same en route back towards the square.

This scenario is just as plausible as some of the others researchers have sought to rely on. It certainly challenges the explanation that the killer deposited the apron piece. There would be no argument if we knew it were not possible for Eddowes to have been in that location prior to her death but she could have been.

I do not intend to say anymore on the murder of Eddowes as I have some new and important evidence on the case which I will be holding back and will be disclosing at The York Conference.

[Monty]

Ok Trevor,

No worries.

Monty

[RavenDarkendale]

hello all,

Looking at the paln pf mitre square it looks as though entry and exit can be gained via St James Place. I thought the only entry exit points were Church Passage and Mitre Street or was St james Place blocked somehow.

Thank you

Regards

Waterloo

I am almost positive that there were three entrances, with one being from St. James place. I never saw anyone answer Waterloo, so correct me if I am wrong. And isn't the passage from St. James Place still there? It does look like it on Google Earth, but I have never been to London. Help via answer would be appreciated, I am POSITIVE any number of you have more knowledge than myself! This is basically how I get my information, viz:

[Steven Russell]

I am almost positive that there were three entrances, with one being from St. James place. I never saw anyone answer Waterloo, so correct me if I am wrong. And isn't the passage from St. James Place still there? It does look like it on Google Earth, but I have never been to London. Help via answer would be appreciated, I am POSITIVE any number of you have more knowledge than myself! This is basically how I get my information, viz:

Post 23 of this thread seems to show clearly an entry from St James's Place.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Monty]

There are 3 exits from Mitre Square and are still in existance today, albeit with different names.

Below is a copy of the 1887 Goads map of the Square.

The black circle indicates the position of Eddowes body when found by Watkins.

The lime green coloured line indicates Church Passage. It is now named St James Passage.

The red coloured line indicates St James Passage as was in 1888 (not today, as already mentioned). Today it is named Mitre Passage. This passage was a covered passage in 1888 as it is today.

The orange line is the carriage exit into Mitre Street.



Monty

[RavenDarkendale]

There are 3 exits from Mitre Square and are still in existance today, albeit with different names.

Below is a copy of the 1887 Goads map of the Square.

The black circle indicates the position of Eddowes body when found by Watkins.

The lime green coloured line indicates Church Passage. It is now named St James Passage.

The red coloured line indicates St James Passage as was in 1888 (not today, as already mentioned). Today it is named Mitre Passage. This passage was a covered passage in 1888 as it is today.

The orange line is the carriage exit into Mitre Street.



Monty

Ah. Renamed "Mitre Passage". I appreciate the answer. I was tracing all the murder sites one day, flipping from an old map to Google Earth, and when I reached Mitre Square I went ground level and scanned the whole square for the exits. Glad to know I wasn't just imagining things!