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  #2001  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:06 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Except lech wasn’t found over any body.
Oh yes he was. Ok three feet away. You win.
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  #2002  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:49 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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[quote=jerryd;434996]Yes perspective changes for me, too. In 1887 the construction of the basement in Whitehall began. By September of 1889, the building may have been far enough along that it was no longer an option to use for luring women, storing parts or cutting them up.

Yes, I know that, Jerry. It may well have been that the only real possibility to deposit a torso in the vaults on Wildbores behalf was when it actually happened. But making the assumption that he would have placed parts from all of the torso victims down there if he only had the possibility is a tremendeous stretch - but it is neverthless what we may need to do, if Wildbore is to be presented as the killer. Otherwise, we need some sort of an explanation to why he felt he should do so with the Whitehall victim. Plus I still find the idea that he would place the torso in the vaults and then reveal it himself logically unappealing.
But as always, it is not a question of knowledge, only about our own, separate takes on things.

I'm theorizing that maybe the Whitehall victim was killed in the basement. Then parts were taken away piecemeal, or buried in the basement. As far as Pinchin Street goes, Wildbore has a possible connection to No. 1, Backchurch Lane. It's a long shot, for sure, but it's as close to the arch as you can get, really. Grover & Sons also has timber holds in the docks in that area. Grover & Sons had several Bid Tenders in the Whitechapel area, I'm trying to find which tenders, if any, were accepted for work in the area. As far as dumping parts with no connection, I think I stated before all the parts were on a possible and likely route to his home in Battersea. The other, out of the way Rainham parts, were near his employers office.

So instead of having to argue for a man who killed en route to work, you have a guy that dumped en route to work. That´s kind of funny.
I know about the possible Wildbore connection in Backchurch Lane - and I think it is quite possible that there WAS a connection through the name. I was not aware of the timber holds in the docks. Any which way, what are you envisaging here? That Wildbore carted material from there, and brought the torso along to dump it underways? Or that he bore a grudge against his relative - if he WAS a relative - in Backchurch lane? Or that he found it convenient to take the torso along as he visited there?
Don´t be phazed by me asking these questions: I am genuninely curious, and I myself am suggesting that a hatred of the police may have caused Lechmere to take the torso to Whitehall and place it in the deepest vault! We are both in the same sort of boat, and we have to try and row it as best as we can.

You've said many times yourself, the killer was making a statement by putting the body in the police buildings. What better way to make a statement? Nobody was finding the body, so why not find it for them? That, or he was in the process of trying to bury it at some point in the near future. Just as he did with the leg. Heck, maybe if they looked hard enough they'd have found a few skulls buried in the vault?

To be fair, I am saying that I think that the killer making a statement is a very viable suggestion, going on the implications of the building. I cannot go so far as to say that he must have been making a statement. Tempting though it is to believe in it, it is no fact.
The idea that Wildbore "found" the body when he had grown tired of waiting for the others to get around to it, is logically unappealing to me. I am trying to wrap my head around it, but it will not work. If he had tipped the police off anonymously, it would have made more sense to me, but I would still be very reluctant to accept that Wildbore, who seems to have avoided that kind of obvious coupling to himself in the other cases, would be that reckless in this case. The fact that he himself kept his tools down there makes the suggestion even more odd, closing in on suicidal.
But once again, I always say that we should expect the unexpected, so maybe it was Wildbore who turned the Schoolhouse building just before Lechmere came up to Browns Stable Yard? Because whoever killed the Whitehall victim was also the killer of Polly Nichols.

In reality, I think his comrades failed to smell it because it wasn't there when they were in that part of the vault. If it were, I'm quite sure they would have smelled it once they entered that area.

How long a time do you think the torso spent in the vault, Jerry?
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  #2003  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:52 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
I must say this too, Christer,

Wildbore or another workman may have only been the depositors of the parts and not the killer at all. I haven't left that option out.
Mmmm. I have - obviously - given that some thought too.
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  #2004  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:02 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Since the notion that the vaults in the Scotland Yard building was so secret that only the workmen could have known about it has been brought up again, it should be said that there will have been numerous people transporting things to the spot who knew about the vaults, there will have been numerous people who knew about them after having been told by the workmen there - and it has been suggested that the vaults were used for sleeping rough in.

If this was the case, then the Whitehall victim may have taken the killer to the premises herself and been killed and dismembered on the spot. This, however, would require that the killer brought a fine-toothed saw along to the vaults, something that sounds decidedly odd to my ears, so I am opting for the idea that the victim was killed some place else.
If it was Wildbore, and if he killed and dismembered the woman somewhere else, then we must accept that he afterwards decided on throwing her arm in the Thames, whereas he took the torso and a leg down to his own working place and deposited it there, only to "find" it some time later.

I find the explanation with somebody holding a grudge against the police and choosing the spot for that reason more plausible.
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  #2005  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:04 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
both discovered the body.exactly the same. exept lech was seen befor he raised the alarm. so actually much more suspicious IMHO
Actually, the fact that we know that Lechmere was in contact with Nichols very, very close in time to her death makes him a much better suspect than Wildbore. We have no idea where either Wildbore or the victim in Whitehall were at the time of her death, but we KNOW that Lechmere was in place.

PS. Just noticed that you made that point yourself in an ensuing post.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-12-2017 at 01:24 AM.
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  #2006  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:09 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Abby, Rocky,

Here's the way I look at Wildbore. We have a body found where he is known to frequent on a daily basis. It is a difficult, dark spot to reach. Assuming he deposited it there, what are his options on that Tuesday?

1) Not say anything and somebody else discovers the body and wonders why Wildbore didn't notice it when he often went in there?

2) Say something to a friend in hopes he tells someone and it clears him (Wildbore) somewhat because at least he showed concern?

3) Wait for the right time to get in and move/bury the body?

It may have been too late for #3, because I think the body had an unmanageable stench at that point and others may have been talking about the smell already.
How about:

4/ Move the torso to one of the vaults where Wildbore had no obviuos reason to be.

Would he not have been able to do that, and would that not have taken him some way out of harms way?

The fact that the leg was buried (if it didn´t happen accidentally) makes me wonder why the torso was not - if the killer really wanted to conceal the deed.
Overall, I think we are dealing with a killer who did NOT want to conceal the deeds at all, but instead show them off to an astounded metropolis.

But I must add that I think you are making a both fascinating and viable case for Wildbore. Then again, I was expecting nothing less!

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-12-2017 at 01:27 AM.
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  #2007  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:11 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by John Wheat View Post
A lot of people moved about London at that time being born in a certain street is proof of nothing.
That is very true.

And that is why I don´t speak of proof.

Instead I say that Lechmere had very close and longstanding ties to Pinchin Street. And I add that many serialists have hangups that make them choose certain dumping spots for varying reasons.

And I warn against throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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  #2008  
Old 11-12-2017, 01:15 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by GUT View Post
The middle of the road actually, based on all the evidence, but evidence doesn’t count for much around here.
No, Gut, not based on ALL the evidence. Pauls paper interview is also evidence, and in it, he says that Lechmere was standing where the body was.

As for what evidence counts for, I´d say that it is all we have, and all we can base any thinking on. If you think I myself am in any way violating the evidence, then please speak up and we can discuss it in a friendly manner.

I would say that Bucks Row was so very narrow, that standing out in the road - which would amount to standing in the middle of the road in most people´s minds, quite possibly - would equal standing very close to the body. At any rate close enough to have gotten there by taking a step or two backwards from the kerb.

It would in such case have been a stance that would easily allow for the wording "standing where the body was". By that, Paul did probably not mean that Lechmere was standing ON the body, but instead that he was standing right by it, more or less.

However, since we normally fail miserably to agree on this point, it may be wise not to elaborate any further on it.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-12-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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  #2009  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:02 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Originally Posted by jerryd View Post
Here's the way I look at Wildbore. We have a body found where he is known to frequent on a daily basis. It is a difficult, dark spot to reach.
And he lived within easy walking distance of the putative dump-sites in the Thames.
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  #2010  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:34 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
And he lived within easy walking distance of the putative dump-sites in the Thames.
Yes, he may well have taken a Sunday morning stroll in 1873, down to where the Wandle enters the Thames, bags with body parts in hand.
And of course, the Torso killer must have lived in those parts, no doubt about it.

I think the general consensus is that the torso killer had access to transport. And once you have, just about all of London becomes accessible in a short time. From any chosen point of departure, you can reach the Wandle, Whitehall, Tottenham Court Road, Whitehall, St Pancras Lock, Battersea Gardens and Pinchin Street in no time at all. Which, going by the evidence, is precisely what the Torso killer did.

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-12-2017 at 02:47 AM.
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