The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

I`m with Arnold on this one.
I think he knew that even just a rumour would re-kindle the same problems he faced as on 8th Sept.

Remember, it would have been a Sunday, and everyone would have the day off, getting pissed and having a brawl, and the unlucky Jewish community would be easy targets working at their stalls.

Leaving a copper at the entrance to Wentworth Dwellings may have caused more problems. A mob may think there was something else there that was connected to the murder.

If you put yourself in Warren and Arnold`s shoes, what difference would a photograph make ?
Even if we had a photo of the GSG now, what difference would it make. It might even have been that juwes was written in a way that we could not tell exactly how it was spelt.

I don`t think Arnold could take that chance. Especially as it was a double event this time, and a Sunday.

The point that I was trying to make Jon was that if, after Long had removed the cloth, the police had simply left the message and not done anything to lead anyone to believe that it could have been connected to murder nothing would have happened. I just can't see, no matter how much racial tension might have existed at the time, some Jewish bloke seeing that graffiti, showing it to someone other Jewish bloke who got so angry that they decided to riot. If they had left the message it would probably have still been there the next day.

[Abby Normal]

Hi John,

If he could remove a kidney in the dark, writing a couple of lines in chalk in the dark shouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility. I just think that it's not impossible that it wasn't completely pitch black.

exactly and good point re kidney removal and writing in dark

[Abby Normal]

The point that I was trying to make Jon was that if, after Long had removed the cloth, the police had simply left the message and not done anything to lead anyone to believe that it could have been connected to murder nothing would have happened. I just can't see, no matter how much racial tension might have existed at the time, some Jewish bloke seeing that graffiti, showing it to someone other Jewish bloke who got so angry that they decided to riot. If they had left the message it would probably have still been there the next day.

hi HS
I think the police were concerned and probably rightly so, that word would get out that that's where the bloody apron was found and the public would put two and two together re the graffiti anyway.

[Sam Flynn]

If he could remove a kidney in the dark, writing a couple of lines in chalk in the dark shouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility.

Not just a couple of lines, HS, but a couple (or was it three or four?) lines on a vertical surface in an apparently neat, rounded hand in comparatively small letters. (And it would have been very dark, by the way.)

[Abby Normal]

Not just a couple of lines, HS, but a couple (or was it three or four?) lines on a vertical surface in an apparently neat, rounded hand in comparatively small letters. (And it would have been very dark, by the way.)

so removing a kidney and nicking the eyelids, along with everything else, one could do in the dark but not right a few words on a wall with chalk?

[Herlock Sholmes]

hi HS
I think the police were concerned and probably rightly so, that word would get out that that's where the bloody apron was found and the public would put two and two together re the graffiti anyway.

Hi Abby,

You're probably right there. It's just that I've always felt that it was an over reaction on Arnold and Warrens parts. Perhaps I'm looking at it from a 21st century perspective too much. Or from a 'what I would do' perspective. I still find it difficult to see why simply rubbing out the the word 'juwes' couldn't have been an option though?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not just a couple of lines, HS, but a couple (or was it three or four?) lines on a vertical surface in an apparently neat, rounded hand in comparatively small letters. (And it would have been very dark, by the way.)

Hi Sam,

Still not impossible though. Maybe he had a pair of night vision goggles

I'm heading towards your neck of the woods tomorrow Sam. Off to Hay-on-Wye with a couple of mates. Last time I went I spent £90 on books!

[Sam Flynn]

I'm heading towards your neck of the woods tomorrow Sam. Off to Hay-on-Wye with a couple of mates. Last time I went I spent £90 on books!

I've loved books since I was a kid, and Hay-on-Wye (aka "Book City") is my idea of paradise. Haven't been there for ages, but it's one of my favourite places on earth. Enjoy your visit

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've loved books since I was a kid, and Hay-on-Wye (aka "Book City") is my idea of paradise. Haven't been there for ages, but it's one of my favourite places on earth. Enjoy your visit

Cheers Sam,

This will only be my second visit. Apparently there are only half the book shops that there used to be though. Might need to put a padlock on the wallet

[etenguy]

Not just a couple of lines, HS, but a couple (or was it three or four?) lines on a vertical surface in an apparently neat, rounded hand in comparatively small letters. (And it would have been very dark, by the way.)

As Abby says, he did appear to have good eyesight given what else he did in low light, and quickly. This is where a photograph would help, if only they had waited. Certainly the contemporary police believed that the murderer had written the message, or at least that other people could believe he had.

I find it hard to understand how a senior police officer would be panicked enough to erase potential evidence. Given the pressure on them to find the killer, I would have thought that would outweigh their concerns. They could have covered it until the photographer arrived. Afterall, the grafitto was made public at the inquest.

[Herlock Sholmes]

The fact that the content of the message was made public at the Inquest seems a good point to me. No riots ensued. I still think that they could have covered the message in some way. Maybe nothing would have come of the photograph but I still feel that it was a mistake to erase it bought on by panic. And a panic that I can see little reason for.

[Sam Flynn]

As Abby says, he did appear to have good eyesight given what else he did in low light, and quickly.

Quite so, but much of that could have been achieved by touch, and just all of it was crude. To write perhaps 3 or 4 lines on a vertical surface, and to do so in small, neat letters, strikes me as a different kind of challenge.

They could have covered it until the photographer arrived. Afterall, the grafitto was made public at the inquest.

I couldn't agree more.

[c.d.]

The fact that the content of the message was made public at the Inquest seems a good point to me. No riots ensued. I still think that they could have covered the message in some way. Maybe nothing would have come of the photograph but I still feel that it was a mistake to erase it bought on by panic. And a panic that I can see little reason for.

Hello Herlock,

I am a little more inclined to cut them some slack. There is simply no way that we can no what the atmosphere was like back then. Once a crowd forms anything can set them off.

Where I live (Washington, D.C.) there are always suspicious packages reported by somebody. Not unusual for buildings to be evacuated and traffic diverted. When the package turns out not to have been a threat there are always people put out by being inconvenienced and who blame the police for overreacting. Yet God forbid that the police don't take the threat seriously and a catastrophe ensues those same people would be the first to criticize the police for not taking the threat seriously.

Now I am not saying that Warren made the right decision only that we have the luxury of not being in his shoes and facing the consequences of a wrong decision.

c.d.

[John G]

Time for a summary. Firstly, apart from moonlight, is there any light that could have shone onto the narrow passageway entrance of Wentworth Dwellings where the graffiti was found? I think the answer has to be no. Thus, there was a street lamp that could theoretically have shone onto the passage, but this was 20 feet away. However, an expert consulted by Neil Bell stated that the maximum range of a good quality lamp of the period, which would have thrown out the equivalent amount of light as a refrigerator lightbulb, would be just 14 feet (and the street lighting in Whitechapel wasn't of the best quality because it was a very poor district.)

Secondly, how dark would it be at the time the graffiti was discovered? Well, there is a photograph, taken in daylight, of the entrance to Wentworth Dwellings taken in the 1970s (it had hardly changed since 1888), which can be found in CSI Whitechapel (2012) and Scotland Yard Investigates, Evans and Rumbelow, (2006). However, despite being daylight, you can't actually see into the passage as it's cloaked in darkness: might this explain why the graffiti wasn't removed-because it wasn't noticed- if it was written, say, a few days earlier, possibly in daylight hours? Consideration also needs to be given to the fact that 1888 was decades before the era of light pollution: there were no car headlights, modern street lights, and neon signs in those days. Even the pubs, that may have provided some additional lighting, closed at midnight!

And, as I've noted before, Dutfield's Yard is a good comparator. In this location, it was so dark that, at about 12:40am, Joseph Lave couldn't even find the door to get back into the club. And, at 1:00am, Louis D looked down on Stride's body-at the lighter front end of the Yard- thinking it was a bundle of rags.

However, I think the Wentworth Dwellings entrance must have been even darker, as it was narrower than Dutfield's Yard, and was enclosed by a roof-unlike the Stride murder location, of course.

In this regard, PC Long's testimony is also helpful: "He [PC Long] had not noticed the wall before. He noticed the piece of apron first, and then the words on the wall...his light was on at the time."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881012.html

It therefore appears that, without the aid of his lamp, the officer couldn't even see the wall, let alone the writing.

Thirdly, could the author have used a match? As I've previously noted, matches of the period would have been ignited by white phosphorus, which is highly volatile, and chemically similar to napalm-in fact, it's so unstable it can actually self-ignite; here's some videos to illustrate the point: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UnuW-KpQwY8; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xja3nzx7O78; https://sites.google.com/site/chemla...ite-phosphorus

Two issues therefore arise. If he'd struck a number of these matches he would have lit up the area like a Christmas tree, thus drawing attention to himself, and why would JtR be crazy enough to do that? And if he put the burnt out matches in his pocket-and if he didn't, where were they?-I think he might very well have set himself on fire! I mean, even a modern red phosphorus match still smoulders at the tip after it's burnt out, so would you put a match, that's just been ignited by a napalm like substance, in your pocket?

And why would he bother anyway? Unless, perhaps, he was constructing a replica model of the murder sites out of matchsticks!

It would also be hopelessly impractical. Harold Brown conducted an experiment and it took him 45 seconds to write out the graffito in a legible hand: https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...l?printer=true In that period the author may have had to light, say, ten matches, all the while attracting attention to what he was doing. Quite frankly, it would have been a completely insane idea.

Conclusion: It is very unlikely that the graffiti was written by JtR because it would have been far too dark for him to have written it in "good schoolboy hand."

[John G]

Will do, John.

But for now, I`m about to type out the rest of this post blindfolded, just to see how it turns oudml;c .dITwhat hsk;vkedopf,.v,.3e 3,ll;l;ow flfl;lcv^&$d cdjkcmc mvm, k cashews ffg #'g;f/cff44f5df2d33DF.

Excellent first attempt Jon, I can even make out the word "cashews"!