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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Kosminski, Aaron

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  #51  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:00 PM
Pontius2000 Pontius2000 is offline
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As a matter of interest, what's your source for saying the oldest club member was 29, that most of the 100 people there that night weren't members, and that the 100 people there were drinking?

Thanks
Paul
Tom Wescott's book. You'd have to ask him his sources. But I believe he states that the actual club membership was fairly small and ranged in age from 17-29. He named the oldest member, Morris Eagle maybe? He also stated the club had someone posted outside soliciting new potential members to come in and drink. So it's very possible that JtR was invited in off the streets that night for some alcohol, which got him into the killing mode, which led to Stride's murder.
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  #52  
Old 10-06-2017, 01:20 PM
PaulB PaulB is offline
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Originally Posted by Pontius2000 View Post
Tom Wescott's book. You'd have to ask him his sources. But I believe he states that the actual club membership was fairly small and ranged in age from 17-29. He named the oldest member, Morris Eagle maybe? He also stated the club had someone posted outside soliciting new potential members to come in and drink. So it's very possible that JtR was invited in off the streets that night for some alcohol, which got him into the killing mode, which led to Stride's murder.
Thanks. I'll ask Tom. I've read his books, but that information must have bypassed me. As far as I was aware, it was a political club, anarchists and socialists, who met for political discussions and lectures, not a mens' drinking club.
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  #53  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:14 PM
Pontius2000 Pontius2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Thanks. I'll ask Tom. I've read his books, but that information must have bypassed me. As far as I was aware, it was a political club, anarchists and socialists, who met for political discussions and lectures, not a mens' drinking club.
According to his book, they were "technically" a political club, but in actual function were as much a social/drinking club for young Jewish males than anything else.
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  #54  
Old 10-06-2017, 02:28 PM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by PaulB View Post
Thanks. I'll ask Tom. I've read his books, but that information must have bypassed me. As far as I was aware, it was a political club, anarchists and socialists, who met for political discussions and lectures, not a mens' drinking club.
Hi Paul,

"Of all the club members who figure in the Ripper investigation, it is ...Philip Krantz, who stands as the club elder at the ripe old age of 29 in 1888. All of the members appear under thirty, with many in their teens." (Westcott, 2017).

Tom doesn't say it was a "drinking club". He states it "was a collection of young, angry men, who had turned their backs on religion, and wanted to bring down the establishment by any means necessary." (ibid) He does, however, add that beer was served at the club.
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  #55  
Old 10-06-2017, 04:34 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Tom doesn't say it was a "drinking club". He states it "was a collection of young, angry men, who had turned their backs on religion, and wanted to bring down the establishment by any means necessary
Then one of those angry young men could have been a a perfect candidate for the writing of the Goulston street Grafitto, turning against the established Jews.

One other thing that was interesting on Kosminskis Asylum notes was the fact that he thought he should still be under Russian Consulate...This was crossed out though and is quite hard to read, but is words to that effect

Pat......
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  #56  
Old 10-06-2017, 09:55 PM
John G John G is offline
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Then one of those angry young men could have been a a perfect candidate for the writing of the Goulston street Grafitto, turning against the established Jews.

One other thing that was interesting on Kosminskis Asylum notes was the fact that he thought he should still be under Russian Consulate...This was crossed out though and is quite hard to read, but is words to that effect

Pat......
Hi Pat,

Except, as I've argued at length on the GSG thread, I doubt think the graffito was written on the night of the Double Event because it would have been far too dark.
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  #57  
Old 10-07-2017, 12:03 PM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Thanks John .....Will have to have a read of the other thread. I agree if it was dark, it makes it much less likely that Jack wrote it.
Pat.....
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  #58  
Old 10-07-2017, 02:01 PM
kjab3112 kjab3112 is offline
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When I say that Kosminski was probably medicated, I don't mean he was PROPERLY medicated, and certainly not adequately treated for schizophrenia. What I mean is that any asylum inmate prone to any kind of outbursts would have probably been given some sort of mood stabilizer or sedative, at least on occasion.

But whether or not that's true is beside the point. Most people who dismiss Kosminski do so because he was not violent in the asylum. My main point there is that (1) of the preferred targets- female prostitutes- are absent, and (2) if the main exacerbating factor- alcohol- is absent, then there is literally no reason to believe that JtR would've acted even remotely the same in an asylum as he did on the streets where both triggers were readily available.
Of the standard (current) sedative groups, only Chloral Hydrate was available in the late 19th C (from what I would now use).Barbiturates, although identified, did not have an effective form until 1905. Benzodiazepines were not synthesised until the 1950s. Admittedly there were opiates and ether/chloroform type substances but these would be more of a rapid take down type scenario not regular sedation.

Paul
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  #59  
Old 10-17-2017, 12:03 PM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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The "case notes" are periodic notes concerning his physical health. They make very little mention of his behaviour, his mental condition, how his hallucinations manifested themselves, or anything he said. Whether or not they would have reflected anything the asylum authorities were told by the police is therefore moot.
From 'Jack the Ripper --The Facts' by Paul Begg (2006) p.487:

‘In 1891 Melville Macnaghten wrote to Banstead requesting that the Convict Supervision Office be informed if Ostrog was released. There is no suggestion that Banstead were informed that Ostrog was potentially dangerous, possibly a multiple murderer and perhaps Jacks the Ripper.’

Paul, you draw conclusions about Ostrog's alleged violence not being reported to Banstead, but seem to resist this same possibility in the case of Kosminki's committal?

The bald fact that AK's case notes are so mundane and that he was ultimately sent to Leavesden as a harmless imbecile surely supports the conclusion that the attendants were never informed that he was "possibly a multiple murderer and Jack the Ripper?" No?

Perhaps I am dense, but I see no difference, and, indeed what might be called the "cluelessness" of the medical attendants seems even more evident in the case notes for Kosminski.
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  #60  
Old 10-17-2017, 12:39 PM
Scott Nelson Scott Nelson is offline
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For what it's worth, I think workhouse and asylum authorities were never informed about police suspicions that the hairdresser, AK, was a Ripper suspect, because he wasn't.
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