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  #161  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:13 AM
jmenges jmenges is offline
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When the deposition includes statements like this:

"Afte that he was arresyed, supposed to be a bad character."

It must be admitted that there were errors, possibly including ones that might read grammatically.

JM
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  #162  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:14 AM
Ally Ally is offline
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By the way, I am not disputing that the discovery of Tumblety's condition took place in 81. That is most likely when the actual events and ACTION took place.

What I am disputing is that the conversation and STRICTLY the conversation regarding disemboweling took place in 81. That happened later, as an entire piece, where he heard the statement and knowing about the Murders, hied himself off to the police. AS he says occurred.
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  #163  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:14 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ally View Post
As I said, you can read it however you want. However, the addition of the completely imaginary Not turns the sentence from grammatically correct to grammatical gibberish.

The sentence as it stands is grammatically correct. The three sentences together form a coherent narrative of an event that all happened at the same time.

Anyone is free to twist it out of all shape but that doesn't change the fact the three sentences together are grammatically correct and form a cohesive narrative, and the additions of "not" and time jumps do so at the expense of having to twist the sentences all out of logical and grammatical shape to make them fit what you THINK they say, rather than what they actually and grammatically say.

And it should be pointed out that Norris TWICE says he attempts to shun Tumblety at two different points in the timeline and then contradicts himself and says Tumblety shunned him.

So while his sentences are always correct and clear, his narrative and timeline isn't. Which leads more towards him being alright with grammar and not so great on keeping his timeline straight. Because first he tried to shun him after the disemboweling comment which would have happened early 90s then he says he tried to shun him a few years ago when he got "strange".

He apparently managed to keep up quite the relationship for a guy he kept trying to shake loose. And then of course he admits Tumblety was the one who shunned him after his marriage.

So again: everything he actually says points to him not having his timeline in order. And he actually says a couple of times in the deposition he can't remember exactly what year certain things happen.

As I said, you can read it however you want, as long as you accept that your way makes zero grammatical sense. Because it doesn't. Your way requires excusing five mistakes Norris makes in one sentence and one transcription error. That's a lot of "interpretation" .
not mine .. remember I also do not think the "not" should be there....I admit to mine making grammatical errors (grossly so.. and I admit that..that is part of my point, I believe it WAS GRAMMATICALY TERRIBLE, as was much of what he said in other parts) but not transcription errors. I think that is (probably correct) you see Ally, if not for how bad I think Norris spoke (when he would get nervous) I would agree with you, it DOES read how you see it....but.. because of everything else..I can see the mistakes in grammar being on him..Norris...

Steadmund Brand
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Last edited by Steadmund Brand : 05-19-2017 at 05:16 AM.
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  #164  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:16 AM
Ally Ally is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmenges
When the deposition includes statements like this:

"Afte that he was arresyed, supposed to be a bad character."

It must be admitted that there were errors, possibly including ones that might read grammatically.

JM
Well there's typos, but also we don't have the deposition. We have Mike's transcription of the deposition so how do we know what mistakes are the depositions and which are Mikes?

But again, typos are not the same thing as completely leaving out words that change a sentence from a positive to a negative and change a grammatically correct sentence to a senseless one. Not doesn't make sense in that interpretation.

And again, you are reading it as you would WRITE something, not as people would speak. "After that, he was arrested... supposed to be a bad character..." with facial expressions and knowing looks actually makes perfect sense...as someone would SPEAK it.
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Last edited by Ally : 05-19-2017 at 05:40 AM.
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  #165  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:18 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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No no, remember I saw the actual ones.. NOT Mike's transcriptions....sorry that may have been another point of confusion... I was not going off Mike's version.. but the original.

I should have made that clear... sorry

Steadmund
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  #166  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:25 AM
Ally Ally is offline
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I'm not talking about in general, I am talking about the specific example that Jonathan pointed out with the two typos.

The way I realized that this was not the actual court document was because there was a (sic) there after "penus". That only occurs when someone wants to indicate that a word was misspelled in the original. So I knew, when I saw that I wasn't looking at the original.

But there's no (sic) in Jonathan's above cited example. Why not? Is it misspelled in the original and Mike didn't put (sic) this time for some reason or is it a mistake from when Mike transcribed it.

We can only blame the court transcriber for mistakes we KNOW they made. And again, even if these were original court transcriber mistakes, there's still a world of difference between making spelling errors and leaving out a key word that someone really wants to be there because it just makes it soooo much more juicy that way.
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  #167  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:31 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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But I don't add the word.. I just think it's terrible grammar
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  #168  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:34 AM
Ally Ally is offline
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But it's not terrible grammar. If you don't try to make it fit your notion of what you THINK it means, it's perfect grammar.

It's only when you try to make it fit what you believe it means that the grammar becomes bad.

Leave it alone, and the grammar is actually perfect. The sentence is not bad grammar. It makes perfect sense. You just don't want to accept what it says.
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  #169  
Old 05-19-2017, 05:52 AM
Steadmund Brand Steadmund Brand is offline
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But what I am saying in there is terrible grammar throughout the whole of it...when I first heard about it and was told what it said I was in your camp, and even tried making that point...then I received the entire transcript (Not Mike's but photos of the originals) and AFTER reading it ALL...it is what I came to....again..it is not a fair argument (well discussion, not argument as there is no animosity) because you haven't read the whole of it....so you are correct to see it the way you do (as I said exactly how I did before reading it all)...
mine is based on the whole of the info, not just the section...

I noticed you don't disagree with my "suspect theory" from a few posts back ��

Steadmund
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  #170  
Old 05-19-2017, 06:03 AM
Ally Ally is offline
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I would like to see some more examples of the terrible grammar throughout. And I mean terrible grammar as someone would SPEAK, not as someone would write. This is a person speaking and a court transcriber taking it down. Punctuation will not be perfect.

Half of my professional career was looking at a mess of writing and having to quickly identify where the missing punctuation ought to go.

I dispute that Norris' grammar was terrible. He used speaking colloquialism and there are missing commas, pauses and punctuation. But if you read through it, with an eye towards hearing how it ought to sound, it's actually NOT terrible grammar. We are missing the facial markers of grammar and the pauses.

But I spent my life putting them in where they belonged in a mess of writing, so when I read through something, I know what's actual terrible grammar (<--- like that) and what's just a missing comma.

And again, we have to view this as someone ...speaking. And spoken grammar is far different than written grammar. I think everyone will agree to that.

And he does not indicate poor grammar. Especially not such poor grammar that he would confuse "remember" and "know".

It is not poor grammar. It's poor punctuation. Which occurs in all transcripts. Grammar is not the same thing as punctuation. His grammar isn't poor. The punctuation, I grant you, is.
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Last edited by Ally : 05-19-2017 at 06:15 AM.
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