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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #1  
Old 01-03-2013, 03:41 PM
Carrotty Nell Carrotty Nell is offline
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Default Martha Tabram - JTR Catalyst

I don't know whether this idea has been mooted before.

Was Martha the first victim of the inchoate JTR before be developed his mature 'technique'? Or was she the victim of someone else entirely? These questions have been going around for years and opinion among the Ripperologist community seems roughly divided 50-50.

What if Martha was not a victim of our man? But there being no connection between such unusually violent knife murders seems a huge coincidence. It was only three weeks before Nichols' murder and only a few streets away.

What if Martha was JTR's catalyst? Say he had some connection with the dead woman or the crime? Perhaps he lived very close to George Yard and was a minor witness? Perhaps he was one of Martha's regular customers? Perhaps he was just overwhelmed by the public panic and shock which resulted from the George Yard murder?

Could our man have been fantacising about Martha's murder and was this his deadly catalyst?
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  #2  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:21 AM
Ayailla Ayailla is offline
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This in an interesting idea. So, you're presenting the possibility that Jack the Ripper was a copycat killer of whoever killed Martha Tabram?
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:34 PM
Carrotty Nell Carrotty Nell is offline
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Perhaps not 'copycat' as such because the MO was so divergent.

But 'inspired' by Martha's killing. Perhaps he had been fantacising about Martha and her brutal murder for the three intervening weeks, working up his own frenzied bloodlust to kill his first victim.
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  #4  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:22 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Default Martha - JTR first victim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrotty Nell View Post
I don't know whether this idea has been mooted before.

Was Martha the first victim of the inchoate JTR before be developed his mature 'technique'? Or was she the victim of someone else entirely? These questions have been going around for years and opinion among the Ripperologist community seems roughly divided 50-50.

What if Martha was not a victim of our man? But there being no connection between such unusually violent knife murders seems a huge coincidence. It was only three weeks before Nichols' murder and only a few streets away.

What if Martha was JTR's catalyst? Say he had some connection with the dead woman or the crime? Perhaps he lived very close to George Yard and was a minor witness? Perhaps he was one of Martha's regular customers? Perhaps he was just overwhelmed by the public panic and shock which resulted from the George Yard murder?

Could our man have been fantacising about Martha's murder and was this his deadly catalyst?
It's my considered opinion that Martha was definitely JTR's first victim, that JTR went on to murder at least the next three victims, and that JTR was definitely two persons, and that there was a very close connection to Martha. See "Martha's sons"in this forum.
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  #5  
Old 02-24-2013, 10:50 AM
kensei kensei is offline
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I think Martha was definitely a victim of the Ripper, but not his first attack, just his first kill. (Millwood and Wilson considered.) I picture Jack walking past George Yard Buildings more or less minding his own business, not on the hunt for a victim specifically but with knife or knives on him and with the thought always in the back of his mind, and then hearing the drunken Martha call out to him as he passed by. She was sitting there resting after having finished with her soldier, her head buzzing too much for her to make her way without staggering, and maybe called out something like "Hey Guvnor, fancy some company?" Which stopped Jack in his tracks, thinking "Mmmmm, another whore. I am getting really tired of this." And then his rage took over. I don't think I'd call her a catalyst, I just think Jack turning killer was inevitable and she just happened to be the first.

Last edited by kensei : 02-24-2013 at 10:53 AM.
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  #6  
Old 02-24-2013, 11:23 AM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Default hard sell

Hello Nell.

"Perhaps he had been fantacising about Martha and her brutal murder for the three intervening weeks, working up his own frenzied blood lust to kill his first victim."

So, are you suggesting two murderers with a similar MO, victimology, and in the same area and time? Good luck with that one.

Cheers.
LC
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:48 PM
Supe Supe is offline
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Lynn,

So, are you suggesting two murderers with a similar MO, victimology, and in the same area and time?

Why not? As it is, the murderer of Polly Nichols had a professional, patterned method of killing. Tabram's murderer(s) did not. I find it much more difficult to posit that the murderer learned the technique used on Nichols in three weeks than that Martha and Polly met their fates at the hands of two different people.

Don.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:04 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supe View Post
Lynn,

So, are you suggesting two murderers with a similar MO, victimology, and in the same area and time?

Why not? As it is, the murderer of Polly Nichols had a professional, patterned method of killing. Tabram's murderer(s) did not. I find it much more difficult to posit that the murderer learned the technique used on Nichols in three weeks than that Martha and Polly met their fates at the hands of two different people.

Don.
I also find it tough to accept one killer throughout the entire range of Whitechapel murders, everyone likely agrees on that.
Its where to draw the line that the controversy appears, and when theories are proposed which divide up the C5, this is likely to cause real division, being both the hardest to substantiate, and the hardest to accept.

Tabram could quite easily have been the result of a soldiers drunken night out, but also, the result of an infuriated client. Not necessarily the same killer as Nichols, but then we cannot rule that out either.

Really, Martha Tabram could be attributable to anyone.

Regards, Jon S.
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  #9  
Old 02-24-2013, 03:18 PM
Phil H Phil H is offline
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I see a numer of possibilities involved with Tabram that COULD (by no means certainly did) influence "Jack".

A) Tabram was killed by the same group who attacked Emma Smith, and the future "Jack" was a member of that group. He subsequently went solo.

B) Jack saw or read about the Tabram murder and became obsessed.Hos own tastes were for more than stabbing".

C) The killer of Tabram was "Jack" honing his MO and may be related to other earlier non0fatal attacks.

Personally though, I feel that Tabram was a stand-alone case. She was probably killed by two soldiers who believed she had diddled them, and they came back for revenge. I see little connection with the way in which Nichols was murdered, the location or the weapon. But that is NOT to say "Jack" hadn't killed before, or tried to.

I am thus open to various possibilities.

Phil
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Old 02-24-2013, 04:25 PM
bolo bolo is offline
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Hello Phil,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil H View Post
I see a numer of possibilities involved with Tabram that COULD (by no means certainly did) influence "Jack".

A) Tabram was killed by the same group who attacked Emma Smith, and the future "Jack" was a member of that group. He subsequently went solo.
this is something I've pondered on for some years as well. Our Jack may have been a member of said group and was the one who always went one or several steps further. Eventually, the group split up because the other two didn't want to put up with Jack's mood swings and overboarding brutality anymore, so he went solo as you said and scored his first kill in George Yard. Then he took it one step further with Polly.

Of course this scenario has several problems, like the change in MO over only three weeks as Lynn already mentioned. Still, I think it could be worth it to keep at it and also take a fresh new look at the East End gangland while we're at it.

Regards,

Boris
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