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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #11  
Old 09-26-2012, 02:03 PM
woocus woocus is offline
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Default Martha's sons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Woocus. I'm sorry to hear you're in the hospital. I hope you're out in no time! Regarding Martha, I agree there's evidence of two killers, one more in control, as you say. However, I'm confused by your proposal that she knew and may even have been related to her killer(s). The location says to me that she was turning a trick and not catching up with her kids, or friends, etc. And why on earth would anyone go to such trouble to follow Tabram into that building just to mug her? This could have been done out on the street with little danger of it escalating into murder. Considering the blow to her head, it seems to me they could easily have succeeded in taking whatever little she had and getting away without resorting to murder and overkill.

I take it you exclude Emma Smith and consider Tabram the first of a series of murders? That's interesting considering you believe Tabram was killed by more than one man, as we know Smith was.

I can understand some of your conclusions - that Tabram was killed by more than man...but I don't see at all how you came to conclude her killers knew her, let alone were related to her. When you get the chance, if you could expound, I'd be intrigued to read it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Hi Tom, last operation after 18 months of cancer treatment, back home yesterday, now on recovery road.
I'm speculating without any evidence, which I would far prefer have before expounding, but here's a bit to start with.
1. Let's say that (according to Mayyews "London Poor"), most children as late as 1912 in poverty stricken and poorer areas left school before the age of 12 yrs, and were sent to work.
By the time Martha's boys are 16 and 17 yrs, they would be doing a mans' job for long hours, and maybe even have a common law partner. In other words, tho' young in age, these guys would be fully functional as adults.
If they fitted the costermonger type role, work might have been occasional, and they would have to supplement where and as they could.
2. The Metropolitan Police Service - History - Jack the Ripper, reduces all speculated suspects to a mere four "with no hard evidence exist(ing) against any of them".
3. Patricia Cornell states that whoever murdered Martha Tabram, showed a "highly personal association" with the victim.
4. Emma Smith excludes herself by her testimony.
So, if Martha was killed by the soldier/soldiers, I can understand the initial killing, but how does one explain the methodical stabbing of the various parts of the body, and how did he/they escape obsevation before cleaning up the uniforms they were wearing?
4.On my supposition, whoever killed her possibly did not plan the murder, it started out as a mugging. She is attacked from behind, she falls unconcious unexpectedly, the first stab wound to her breast is a decided one to kill her to ensure she is dead, that triggers the explosion of anger, and the red haze and the methodical stabbing to different parts of her body, a demonstration of the revulsion the murderer feels, that this close relative could stoop to such a degradated existence. The murderers mindset is that Martha is the reason for his/their struggle in life. (and in all the mutilations, a statement to the effect He wishes he'd never been born.)
So, I see a pathological son with a barely controllable temper, exploding after being demeaned beyond his tolerance, all over a long period of time.
The partner is under the control of the alpha male, they lay low waiting to be discovered, after three weeks realise the are not suspected, and the blodd lust returns.
5. Its quite possible one needs a robust explanation for the double murder, especially as Elizabeth Stride doesn't fit the MArtha profile, and Kelly was possibly murdered by only the one brother, given her peculiar circumstances.

That's not to exclude of the murders being done by any of the other suspects, but the physical similarities of Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes points to the same murderer/s.
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  #12  
Old 09-27-2012, 03:11 AM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Wooc, thanks for the lengthy reply. But a few things first: Martha was poverty stricken, but her husband and children were not. Emma Smith said she was attacked by two or three men. If Martha was attacked by more than one man (as you believe), then I don't seem how Emma ruled herself out by her statement. If anything, Emma's statement puts her well in the frame as the same murderers (if you believe Tabram was killed by more than one), along with the facts that both were killed on bank holidays and within 300 yards of each other.
Also, 90% of anything Patricia Cornwell has to say about the Ripper is wrong. As for soldiers, there's no reason to believe she was killed by soldiers. You might just be correct in that she was mugged, though. Assuming she made any money that night, none was to be found on her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #13  
Old 09-27-2012, 08:20 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Wooc, thanks for the lengthy reply. But a few things first: Martha was poverty stricken, but her husband and children were not. Emma Smith said she was attacked by two or three men. If Martha was attacked by more than one man (as you believe), then I don't seem how Emma ruled herself out by her statement. If anything, Emma's statement puts her well in the frame as the same murderers (if you believe Tabram was killed by more than one), along with the facts that both were killed on bank holidays and within 300 yards of each other.
Also, 90% of anything Patricia Cornwell has to say about the Ripper is wrong. As for soldiers, there's no reason to believe she was killed by soldiers. You might just be correct in that she was mugged, though. Assuming she made any money that night, none was to be found on her.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Hi Tom, I agree about Patricia Cornwell, I am relying on her forensic and medical experience as regards the personality of the murderer and his connection to the victim.
I need to find detail on Martha's sons, her brothers, John Elliot (your suggestion?) or that someone that I can identify with her.
Emma Smith? I've first got to make a clear connection between the murderer and Martha, and then speculate more fully on who murdered who.
Martha, Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes all fit the same description.
So once I can point to A murderer, I can pull these other strings together.
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  #14  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:04 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Wooc. No, I didn't suggest John Elliot. I don't think Martha was killed by a family member. As for street mugging, as you suggest Martha was a victim of, it's rarely a domestic crime. Probably close to never.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #15  
Old 10-06-2012, 06:54 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Wooc, thanks for the lengthy reply. But a few things first: Martha was poverty stricken, but her husband and children were not.
Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Hi Tom, early days,but can I argue to support my theory of MT and her sons being in severe straights.
From the coronors report on Martha, the following, Mary Bousfiled - 4 Star Place, Commercial road. MT lived with her until 3 weeks before her death. She says "Turner was very good to her, and helped her support 2 children she had by her husband" (Ripper notes#25)
In Wikipedia - Martha Tabram, it is stated that MT and her sons were listed as being overnight inmates at the Whitechapel Union Workhouse Casual Ward at Thomas Street on the Cencus night of 1881.
MT having left her husband in 1875 and reduces her stipend in about 1878.
Turner loses regular employ in 1888 and sells trinkets on the street.
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  #16  
Old 10-06-2012, 05:14 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Wooc. Yes, in 1881, Turner and Martha would have had her kids part of the time. But in 1888, that wasn't the case. I just don't see why or how you settled on Martha's kids as her killers. It just doesn't fit with her life at the time of the murder, the murder location, the condition of her corpse when found, or the post mortem evidence. You will have a hard sell on this one.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #17  
Old 10-06-2012, 07:04 PM
Bridewell Bridewell is offline
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Hi Woocus,

Welcome to the Boards,

Martha's two sons were Frederick John (born 1871) and Charles Henry, born in the following year. I can't find either boy in the school lists on Ancestry.

Regards, Bridewell.
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Regards, Bridewell.
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  #18  
Old 10-23-2012, 08:31 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridewell View Post
Hi Woocus,

Welcome to the Boards,

Martha's two sons were Frederick John (born 1871) and Charles Henry, born in the following year. I can't find either boy in the school lists on Ancestry.

Regards, Bridewell.
Thanks for that. Firstly, I may have been rather presumptious in naming the brothers as the perpetrators with no viable evidence, so I should apologise for that.
I've subsequently found out that one brother possibly moved to Wales and had a family, the other, possibly moved overseas to America(?) - neither proven.
I am convinced that whoever murdered Martha had a highly personal agenda - which is corroborated by the extent of the stabbing, being specific in body location, as opposed to a nutter stabbing in a frenzy.
I find nothing that says that the brothers were living in a stabilized environment, empirically, it's far more likely they were living in penury.
That doesn't make them murderers, I agree.
I make a calculated assumption that the way Martha was murdered, tells of her being immobilised from behind, and stabbed from the front - therefore 2 perpetrators. This method is also evident in at least the next two murders.
I propose that the perpretators of Martha's murder were completely overlooked in the initial police investigation, they believed themselves to be beyond suspicion, and this led them to consider the next murder.
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  #19  
Old 10-23-2012, 09:12 AM
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Chris Scott Chris Scott is offline
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Frederick John Tabram
Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

1871 census:
20 Marshall P(lace), St George, London Road
Head: Henry Tabram aged 35 born Whitechapel - Furniture porter
Wife: Martha Tabram aged 21 born Southwark
Children:
Henry Tabram aged 10
Frederick aged 1 month
Both born in Southwark

1881 census:
Workhouse, 35 Thomas Street, Whitechapel
Inmates:
Martha Tabran (sic) aged 30 born Borough, Surrey - Flower hawker
Frederick Tabran aged 8
Charles Tabran aged 7
Both born Borough

1891 census:
3 Llewelyns Row, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
Head: Frederick J Tabram aged 22 born London - Coal miner
Wife: Ann Tabram aged 21 born Machynlleth

1901 census:
22 Park Terrace, Ystradyfodwg, Glamorgan
Head: Fred. J Tabram aged 32 born London - Coal hewer
Wife: Anne Tabram aged 31 born born Montgomery
Children:
Henry L Tabram aged 9
Elizabeth M Tabram aged 6
William C Tabram aged 2
All born Ystradfodwg

1911 census:
6 East Street, Abertillery, Monmouth
Head: Frederick John Tabram aged 42 born London - Coal Miner Hewer
Wife: Ann Tabram aged 41 born Monmouthshire
Children:
Henry Lewis Tabram aged 19 - Coal Miner Hewer
Elizabeth Mary Tabram aged 17
William Charles Tabram aged 12
Deborah Tabram aged 10
All born in Glamorgan

Years married: 19
Children born: 5
Children living: 4
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  #20  
Old 10-30-2012, 12:27 PM
woocus woocus is offline
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[quote=Chris Scott;243326]Frederick John Tabram
Born 1870 St Saviours, Southwark

Married 1890 in Pontypridd, Wales to Ann Thomas

Thanks for that, Chris, pretty much tells me this brother was not overly educated. Now for the other brother, lets guess he left for (America) pretty soon after December 1888. Need some proof.
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