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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #1  
Old 09-09-2012, 08:26 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Default Martha's sons

Does anyone have any information on Martha's two sons at the time of her death? i.e. Schooling, work history, personality traits? Or can you direct me to research material?
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  #2  
Old 09-09-2012, 03:49 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Woocus. I recal that the older one was 17 at the time of Martha's death, and was probably in the work force, whereas the other would have still been in school. I believe they lived with their father, so that would tell you roughly where they went to school. I can look up where Henry Tabram was living at the time. Might I ask what prompted your questions?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #3  
Old 09-09-2012, 03:52 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hello again, Woocus. The following is from the East London Observer of Aug 25th, 1888. I hope this helps in some way, but I don't believe I've ever come across the specific schools her children attended.

The first witness called was Henry Tabram - a sallow complexioned man with iron-grey hair, and wearing a moustache and imperial of the same colour, together with a dark blue serge coat - living at 5, River-terrace, East Greenwich, and described as a foreman packer at a furniture repository

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old 09-12-2012, 06:46 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Default Martha Tabrams sons

Hi Tom, I've spent yonks going thro the various suspects and according to the police files none of the suggested suspects had convictable evidence against them.
Martha was chucked out by her partner for her drinking and behaviour. If you read Mayhews "London Poor" you will see that these folk lived in abject circumstances, and living near squatter camps here in Cape Town you get a view on just how desparate their circumstances could be.
I understand the sons, 17 and 16 at the time, lived and mutually supported themselves and their mother (and their mother them). I want to explore their living conditions and their emotional profiles.
David M Radka 2004 in Alternative Ripperology Phase 1 gives a profile of the murderer/s and what stands out for me is the statement that these murders had a highly personal aspect.
So either they feature or I'm on my way up the garden path, if their profiles don't fit, I'll next explore her two brothers.
Regards

Last edited by woocus : 09-12-2012 at 06:48 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:59 AM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Woocus. Martha's children did not live with her. However, I'd like to learn more about John Hewitt, the 21 year old son of Francis Hewitt, who was living with them at the time Martha's body was found 12 feet outside their door.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old 09-13-2012, 07:11 AM
woocus woocus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Woocus. Martha's children did not live with her. However, I'd like to learn more about John Hewitt, the 21 year old son of Francis Hewitt, who was living with them at the time Martha's body was found 12 feet outside their door.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Hi Tom, I think we're vaguely on the same page here. Someone close to Martha exploded in anger after continued very personal frustration with her and attacked her. I think she was taken from behind, being rather short she was choked by an arm around her throat, the first (Bayonet) type stab possibly thro her breast bone, she's laid on her back by the rear attacker, the frontal attacker then vents his anger whilst she is lying down dying. So I see an alpha male at the front with an accomplice in the subservient but controllable role.
The red haze or adrenalin rush that comes with their attack is an absolute high, which eventually leads to the next murder, after waiting some time to see if they were suspected.
The commonality in looks and age of the victims suggests either a"hate motherfixation" or more believably a victim small and old enough to not offer much resistance.
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:08 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Woocus. That's very possible. And being inebriated makes it far easier to be strangled into unconsciousness.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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Old 09-13-2012, 02:16 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woocus View Post
Hi Tom, I think we're vaguely on the same page here. Someone close to Martha exploded in anger after continued very personal frustration with her and attacked her. I think she was taken from behind, being rather short she was choked by an arm around her throat, the first (Bayonet) type stab possibly thro her breast bone, she's laid on her back by the rear attacker, the frontal attacker then vents his anger whilst she is lying down dying. So I see an alpha male at the front with an accomplice in the subservient but controllable role.
The red haze or adrenalin rush that comes with their attack is an absolute high, which eventually leads to the next murder, after waiting some time to see if they were suspected.
The commonality in looks and age of the victims suggests either a"hate motherfixation" or more believably a victim small and old enough to not offer much resistance.
so you think martha Tabrams sons were Jack the Ripper?
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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Old 09-15-2012, 03:53 PM
woocus woocus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
so you think martha Tabrams sons were Jack the Ripper?
I need to find out the personality traits and living conditions and whether the sons worked or were still at school etc to expand further, but after much thought, I'm pretty confident the soldiers had moved on by 2.30am, that who ever murdered Martha had a close personal relationship with her, there were two people involved, and that the "high"triggered by this murder encouraged the next ones. I doubt whether Martha's two older brothers will fit the profile, but it is a possibility.
I surmise there is an alpha male with pathalogical tendencies, supported by a partner who is subservient but much in the control of the other. Martha's murder is not planned, it was supposed to be a mugging that went wrong when she was strangled (inadvertently).
The second murder three weeks later is a return to the adrenalin rush of the first, the victim is small so as not to resist overtly, by now the murders have escaped the immediate suspicion of the police.
I could go on but would like info before further projections. (I'm in hospital for a week from tomorrow so will only check back in a weeks time)
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:34 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Hi Woocus. I'm sorry to hear you're in the hospital. I hope you're out in no time! Regarding Martha, I agree there's evidence of two killers, one more in control, as you say. However, I'm confused by your proposal that she knew and may even have been related to her killer(s). The location says to me that she was turning a trick and not catching up with her kids, or friends, etc. And why on earth would anyone go to such trouble to follow Tabram into that building just to mug her? This could have been done out on the street with little danger of it escalating into murder. Considering the blow to her head, it seems to me they could easily have succeeded in taking whatever little she had and getting away without resorting to murder and overkill.

I take it you exclude Emma Smith and consider Tabram the first of a series of murders? That's interesting considering you believe Tabram was killed by more than one man, as we know Smith was.

I can understand some of your conclusions - that Tabram was killed by more than man...but I don't see at all how you came to conclude her killers knew her, let alone were related to her. When you get the chance, if you could expound, I'd be intrigued to read it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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