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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #71  
Old 04-24-2011, 05:55 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S View Post
It doesn't help the the British Army changed bayonets fron the triangular socket to the knife style....in 1888!....But I'm sure there's a reference to 2nd-hand ones being sold in Petticoat Lane,so it doesn't need to tie in a soldier at all.......
Steve
Tom Cullen provided a footnote in his, Autumn of Terror, p 36 ppbk.

"An unexpected result of the Tabram inquest was that soldiers stationed in the Tower of London were forbidden to carry bayonets or any sidearms while on leave. This information was given to me by James W. Bousfield, whose mother ran a boarding-house at No. 4 Star court (now Planet Street) where Martha Tabram lodged...."Autumn of Terror, Cullen, 1973.

Believe it, or not...
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  #72  
Old 04-24-2011, 06:26 PM
YankeeSergeant YankeeSergeant is offline
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Lightbulb bayonets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Tom Cullen provided a footnote in his, Autumn of Terror, p 36 ppbk.

"An unexpected result of the Tabram inquest was that soldiers stationed in the Tower of London were forbidden to carry bayonets or any sidearms while on leave. This information was given to me by James W. Bousfield, whose mother ran a boarding-house at No. 4 Star court (now Planet Street) where Martha Tabram lodged...."Autumn of Terror, Cullen, 1973.

Believe it, or not...
I teach Civil War era bayonet drill and I have handled both Triangular and Sword bayonets. Obviously the Triangular bayonet lacking a hilt would be next to useless in Tabram's murder. A sword bayonet could have been used but I would expect to deep wounds prompting massive damage. In my novel I pose the theory and use it for fictional purposes that Tabram is killed by a sailor she tried to steal from with a dagger that gets stuck and has to be wiggled to be removed. One person with two weapons would be cumbersome to my mind and two killers, well the eminent Dr. Benjamin Franklin said, "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead."
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Last edited by YankeeSergeant : 04-24-2011 at 06:27 PM. Reason: spelling for fun and adventure
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  #73  
Old 04-24-2011, 11:01 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by YankeeSergeant View Post
I teach Civil War era bayonet drill and I have handled both Triangular and Sword bayonets.
Ann & I use to go to Civil War reenactments every year around the Province, we enjoyed the costumes and history of the times. I wore a CSA kepi for every day use back in the 90's, loved the cap. I should get another. I bought it from a Suttler's somewhere in Michigan.

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Originally Posted by YankeeSergeant View Post
Obviously the Triangular bayonet lacking a hilt would be next to useless in Tabram's murder....
Certainly, if Tabram had been stabbed with the spike-bayonet I would expect it to go clean through to her spine. And, there would have been no mention of a 'dagger-like' weapon.

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Originally Posted by YankeeSergeant View Post
In my novel I pose the theory and use it for fictional purposes that Tabram is killed by a sailor she tried to steal from with a dagger that gets stuck and has to be wiggled to be removed....
Interesting..
You are no doubt aware that some have theorized that a smaller knife was used on Tabram to produce the wound in the breasbone. That the reason the hole 'looked' bigger was because the killer had to wiggle the knife to get it out - stupid idea!
Anyone could recreate this scenario by placing a plastic lid over a full bowl of jelly (jello). Then stab a penknife through the plastic lid, into the jelly and then wiggle the knife in an attempt to make the hole larger WITHOUT leaving any 'wiggle' impressions in the jelly - impossible!

The actual wound was larger and more important deeper, which side-to-side wiggling cannot reproduce.
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  #74  
Old 04-25-2011, 01:12 AM
PC Roadnight PC Roadnight is offline
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The British Army was then using the Lee-Metford rifle with the sword pattern/88 bayonet with a 12 inch blade. Some, particularly Colonial and Militia units, would probably have still had the Martini-Henry with the correspondingly longer sword bayonet of 18.5 inch blades.

The MH 1886/7 sword bayonet was really too unwieldy off the rifle to be used for repeated stabbing, but the Metford bayonet at 12 inches was eminently suitable.

As a previous poster was I think saying the earlier triangular socket bayonet was never intended as a hand held weapon, being again only really effective when attached to the rifle.

Peter
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Old 12-01-2014, 02:58 AM
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Batman Batman is offline
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Saying Killeen was influenced by PC Barrett and/or media doesn't explain that Killeen identified a left hand was used on the chest wound.

So not only did Killeen identify a different knife, he said it was done by another hand.

In order for the single knife theory to work you need an ambidextrous killer ... Or just smear Killeen as incompetent.
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  #76  
Old 12-01-2014, 12:27 PM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Batman View Post
Saying Killeen was influenced by PC Barrett and/or media doesn't explain that Killeen identified a left hand was used on the chest wound.

So not only did Killeen identify a different knife, he said it was done by another hand.

In order for the single knife theory to work you need an ambidextrous killer ... Or just smear Killeen as incompetent.
Killeen did not identify a second hand. I'm aware of his comment that one of the wounds could have been inflicted by a different hand. The key word here is 'could'. We don't know to which would he was referring, but whatever difference Killeen perceived could also be explained by a change of the killer's position.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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