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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #11  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:02 AM
Mitch Rowe Mitch Rowe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Mitch,

Dr. Killeen doesn't actually specifiy the breastbone as a target. That's just my conjecture. Also, once again, Dr. Killeen never mentioned bayonet. It's a non-starter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Thanks..Ill read it all again today to refresh my memory on the subject.
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  #12  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:03 AM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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It's not a matter of depth, Mitch, but width of the wounds. And you're absolutely correct, we do not know for sure if one or two weapons were used. And if two were used, we don't know if by one or two men.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #13  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:05 AM
Howard Brown Howard Brown is offline
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Mitch:

No, I knew Killeen didn't mention a bayonet,...I effed up the title of the thread...and since Tommy straightened it out, let me continue.

You yourself have probably heard the bayonet theory or at least a bayonet in conjunction with this murder perhaps mentioned once or twice. Tom's explanation of how one removes a knife from wood/a breastplate has always been my interpretation of why the wound appeared to Killeen to have been made with another weapon.

So back to my original question in the proper way...long day at work, Mitch...

Do you guys and anyone else think that this bandying about of the possible "bayonet" was encouraged by Barrett in some way?

P.S. Mike....Don't forget old Charley Ludwig. He had over two knives on his person when they picked him up and I would be surprised if Jack The Ripper didn't as well.
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  #14  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:07 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Mitch writes:
"what we know(possibly) for sure is that many wounds were shallow "

Wrong, Mitch! Of the 38 wounds, we only know for sure that one of them was shallow, and that is the three inch-wide and one inch-deep wound at the lower abdomen. Of the other wounds we know for certain that they travelled through the fatty layers on Tabram, and pierced deep-set internal organs such as spleen and liver. Those are not shallow wounds, Mitch! And still, interestingly, they only left entrance wounds that made Killeen speak of a pen-knife.

The best,
Fisherman
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  #15  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:10 AM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by How Brown
P.S. Mike....Don't forget old Charley Ludwig. He had over two knives on his person when they picked him up and I would be surprised if Jack The Ripper didn't as well.
Absolutely. I believe the Ripper went out prepared, including with a weapon other than a knife in the event of being interrupted before he could escape.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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  #16  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:11 AM
Celesta Celesta is offline
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The JTR Companion, on page 9, states that Dr. Killeen thought one of the wounds "was inflicted by some kind of dagger." Sugden states that "all but one of the wounds had evidently been inflicted with an ordinary pen knife, but the wound on the breast bone had been inflicted with a strong long-bladed weapon, possibly a dagger or a bayonet." (p. 29)

Sugden further states that bayonets and other weapons were easily attainable, and the police knew this. (p.30) In addition, he states that sergeants and corporals were allowed to carry side-arms, incldg bayonets, when on leave.
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  #17  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:13 AM
Mike Covell Mike Covell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Absolutely. I believe the Ripper went out prepared, including with a weapon other than a knife in the event of being interrupted before he could escape.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
Your running along and they are clanging together (The knives I mean!!)

Does this mean Tabram was a "Ripper" victim?
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  #18  
Old 04-17-2008, 12:17 AM
Mitch Rowe Mitch Rowe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Absolutely. I believe the Ripper went out prepared, including with a weapon other than a knife in the event of being interrupted before he could escape.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
What about a gun? Ostrog had one. Why not the Ripper? It would certainly make JTR seem like a less daring individual if he could have shot at anyone disturbing him. Even shooting at Police would scare them I think.
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  #19  
Old 04-17-2008, 01:07 AM
Celesta Celesta is offline
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If this will work, this site has several types of British and other types of bayonets and some knives. You have to go down the list for the bayonets as not all of the ones that might be pertinent are listed together.



http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...icial%26sa%3DG
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  #20  
Old 04-17-2008, 01:17 AM
Tom_Wescott Tom_Wescott is offline
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Celesta,

Yes, but Philip Sugden - God love him - is a modern commentator like the rest of us. The bottom line is that Dr. Killeen did not put forth a bayonet as the weapon, but a dagger and a penknife. This repeatedly gets forgotten for some reason. It is to the Tabram murder what the 'different knife' nonsense is the Stride murder and the 'FM' to the Kelly murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott
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