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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Alice Mackenzie

View Poll Results: McKenzie - Ripper victim or not?
YES 23 41.82%
NO 18 32.73%
UNDECIDED 14 25.45%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:58 PM
Pcdunn Pcdunn is offline
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I have not read up on this murder, so I voted Undecided.

Interesting that other crimes which seemed influenced by the Ripper also had motives, but McKenzie's did not.
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  #42  
Old 10-04-2015, 03:01 PM
Jeff Leahy Jeff Leahy is offline
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Having given this long consideration I think MacKenzie WAS a ripper victim

However that said, I think it can be concluded that Anderson/Swanson and MacNaughten would have disagreed with my assessment

They clearly thought she was NOT a ripper victim

And i believe that is important when considering the various documents related to them...

What they thought is far more important than what modern individuals believe

Yours Jeff
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  #43  
Old 10-04-2015, 04:42 PM
Sleuth1888 Sleuth1888 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
Hey, Sleuth.

I guess that's the $1m question: At what point does a murder become a Ripper murder? Because Tabram had one incidental wound on her lower-abdomen, does that make her a Ripper victim, even if the other 39 stabbings were directed at her upper-torso?
I didn't say that either Tabram, McKenzie or both were Ripper victims.

I merely suggested that they were more similar than we first though viz. the attack on lower portion of body in regards to both victims.

Tabram was killed out of pure rage. The motive? We may perhaps never know. The fact that her skirt was pushed up may suggest that her client was initially preparing for intercourse before any number of things could have set him off. The pushing up of the skirt alone does not scream 'Ripper' to me, neither does one solitary wound to her private parts either, when the other attacks where directed to her chest area.

McKenzie was killed perhaps by an imitator who wanted to arouse excitement and fear once the Autumn of Terror subsided in November.

However there is the possibility that Tabram and McKenzie were killed by the same man, but what makes this man the Ripper? I've yet to find a convincing answer to that question!
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  #44  
Old 10-05-2015, 04:30 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Hello all,

As far as possibly replicated acts go, Alices death is much closer a match with the murders of Polly and Annie than any other alleged Ripper victim....however....if it was a "copycat", then we likely have 2 murders or more that were intended to appear as if Jacky got to them. That's problematic obviously...one is far less a contentious idea than 2 or more killers attempting to disguise their act by invoking the Phantom Menace.

But then again we see in todays world that killers are influenced by the highly publicized details of prior murders. I cite dismembered bodies as an example...one occurrence is often followed by similar acts.

Cheers

Oh, by the way I say no to Jack being the culprit, the man that killed Polly and Annie was out of circulation by that time.
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  #45  
Old 10-05-2015, 06:20 AM
Mayerling Mayerling is offline
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I have voted "undecided" as

1) I'm not really up on the Alice Mackenzie murder, except it was in 1889.
2) The arguments "for" and "against" are equally balanced to me.

My problem is the "canonical five" (six if we include Tabram) are in a relatively close period of time of four months (August to November 1888). Therefore anything before (Emma Smith) or after (Alice MacKenzie to Frances Coles) is questionable. It is a point that many certainly disagree with, as we know (from cases like "the Yorkshire Ripper" or "Zodiac") that serial killers can operate over years, but the spacing and signatures of those cases remain fairly consistent. MacKenzie and Coles could be copycats.

Yet at the same time, if the Ripper did get briefly incarcerated or somehow physically debilitated (beaten up say for an unrelated reason) he might resume at half strength. The idea voiced before of a drugged Ripper escaping from a madhouse and killing Alice while acting at half speed is not impossible.

So I am undecided, though I suspect I'm closer to "No".

Jeff
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  #46  
Old 10-09-2015, 06:34 AM
hanway3 hanway3 is offline
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I would say probably not. Insofar that would had he been doing for the previous six or so months.
I understand the possibility that he could have been away- abroad, in prison, laying low etc. And the MOD was similar but not as pronounced as in previous cases.
Until recently I would have said yes. And it would not take a lot of persuading to convince me again that it was a the same person- 'Our Jack'.
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  #47  
Old 10-09-2015, 06:51 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanway3 View Post
I would say probably not. Insofar that would had he been doing for the previous six or so months.
I understand the possibility that he could have been away- abroad, in prison, laying low etc. And the MOD was similar but not as pronounced as in previous cases.
Until recently I would have said yes. And it would not take a lot of persuading to convince me again that it was a the same person- 'Our Jack'.
Hi Hanway
I was undecided until recently but now I am pretty much convinced she was:

same victimology
same location
same time frame-night
unsolved
killed with knife
throat cut
left carteroid artery severed
two cuts to neck
neck cut while lying on ground
abdomen/pelvic/ privates targeted and cut(ripped)
High level (munroe)police at the time believed she was a ripper victim
Dr believed she was a ripper victim
Found lying on back
And the clincher for me-found with skirt pushed up-like the others, including Tabram.

She was a ripper victim.
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  #48  
Old 10-14-2015, 04:22 AM
hanway3 hanway3 is offline
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Having read the information about George Hutchinson in the preview for Ripperologist 146, I am minded, almost, to revert back to my earlier opinion that Alice was a victim of Jack's.
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  #49  
Old 10-14-2015, 05:33 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanway3 View Post
Having read the information about George Hutchinson in the preview for Ripperologist 146, I am minded, almost, to revert back to my earlier opinion that Alice was a victim of Jack's.
yes. I actually came to the conclusion she was a ripper victim before the article came out, but it has also bolstered my opinion that she was.

Ive always had hutch and Blotchy 1 and 1a on my least weak ripper suspect list and prior to the article I was leaning toward Blotchy. since the article however, I now lean toward Hutch.
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but a dream within a dream?"

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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #50  
Old 10-14-2015, 08:11 AM
John G John G is offline
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I think I initially voted yes, but now I'm undecided. The difficulty, as I see it, is that McKenzie would represent a major de-escalation, which is problematic considering that JtR seems to have exhibited a pattern of escalating violence.

Okay, you could probably expect a degree of de-escalation from Kelly, however, there was substantially less overkill than even the earlier Whitechapel victims. Nicholls, for instance, suffered very deep abdominal injuries and had been virtually decapitated. In contrast, the abdominal injuries inflicted on McKenzie were somewhat superficial, and the neck injuries were less severe than even Stride. In fact it could be argued that there is little evidence of overkill at all, which is problematic as this seemed to be an obvious signature characteristic of JtR (it's worth pointing out that even with Ellen Bury a deep abdominal wound was inflicted.) And, of course, unlike Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly no organs were removed.

That said, McKenzie was killed in Whitechapel. Moreover, there were two stab wounds in the left side of the neck, and it's been argued that parallel cuts were inflicted on the neck of both Nicholls and Chapman, which seems a little coincidental.

However, if McKenzie was a Ripper victim I think he must have been ill or incapacitated in some way. That at least would explain the 7 month gap since Kelly's murder, and why there may have been no other victims.

Last edited by John G : 10-14-2015 at 08:13 AM.
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