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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Non-Canonical Victims > Martha Tabram

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  #141  
Old 02-08-2015, 05:22 AM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
Hi Ausgirl. I don't recall Killeen mentioning there was or wasn't blood in her mouth
He didn't. But he should have.

Quote:
TUE, AUG 7, 1888
(4:53am)

Reeves returned with PC Barrett.35

A plump woman lay on her back; hands at her sides - tightly clenched; there was an absence of blood from her mouth
I admit to not having viewed details of every single murder involving multiple lung and throat stabs that ever was. But the ones I've seen? There's a lot of blood out of the mouth, if they were not killed instantly. That what happens when there's a bleeding lung and/or throat and they try to breathe through the blood they are probably close to drowning in.

Tabram had so many wounds... and she's found lying down with her face to one side.

So how's there no blood.
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  #142  
Old 02-09-2015, 03:23 PM
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SirJohnFalstaff SirJohnFalstaff is offline
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Look at what's happening in Canada.
It's sadly more complex than being prostitutes.
It's the fact that they are amerindians prostitutes, and some of them not prostitutes at all. First Nation criminality/life conditions is a hot topic in Canada for the past 25 years. Nobody, politically, wants to touch the subject. This particular federal govt especially.

Don't want to hijack the thread, message me if you want to know more.
Cheers.
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  #143  
Old 02-09-2015, 07:10 PM
Errata Errata is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
On that specific point, Killeen displayed the extent of medical knowledge at the time.
It was not always possible to detect physical evidence of a previous pregnancy.
It was always possible to detect physical evidence of a pregnancy that resulted in birth. Miscarriages, not so much. And the evidence would have been there even if the uterus had been shredded. And that was standard medical knowledge. He should have seen it. I get why he didn't, but he should have.
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  #144  
Old 02-10-2015, 02:47 PM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by SirJohnFalstaff View Post
It's sadly more complex than being prostitutes.
It's the fact that they are amerindians prostitutes, and some of them not prostitutes at all. First Nation criminality/life conditions is a hot topic in Canada for the past 25 years. Nobody, politically, wants to touch the subject. This particular federal govt especially.

Don't want to hijack the thread, message me if you want to know more.
Cheers.
Thanks, and yes, I think I will.

I was actually thinking of starting a thread for some of the masses of unsolveds in Canada that might be related. I think it being a hot potato political subject means there's killers, and serial killers, getting away with murder left and right. Never mind the domestic violence.. will save that for the pm, heh.
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  #145  
Old 02-10-2015, 03:22 PM
J6123 J6123 is offline
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Possibly.
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  #146  
Old 02-10-2015, 03:42 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Errata View Post
It was always possible to detect physical evidence of a pregnancy that resulted in birth. Miscarriages, not so much. And the evidence would have been there even if the uterus had been shredded. And that was standard medical knowledge. He should have seen it. I get why he didn't, but he should have.
Actually, I was referring to this quote:

".....But the question of most practical importance is this, - supposing a woman to have been a mother, does there remain any mark or sign by which the fact of delivery can at any future period be established ?

The reply to this question which experience warrants appears to be, that in a very great majority of cases we should be totally unable to discover any such certain indication of a former delivery ; for although in some instances there are to be found appearances which point strongly to a probability of such an occurance having taken place, they are very seldom indeed such as ought to be considered decisive of the question ; while in other cases where parturition has occured repeatedly, not one of the signs usually insisted on is found to have continued permanent.

We very lately examined a patient who had born five children and nursed three of them, the youngest being now five years old ; the breasts were small, but neither flacid nor pendulous ; the nipples short, with not the least shade of brown colour in the areolae, which exhibited only the delicate rose colour so often observed on that part of the virgin breast ; there were neither lines nor spots of any kind on the abdomen ; the os uteri was small and natural ; the vagina contracted, and the fourchette perfectly entire. It should be mentioned that this lady never carried her children beyond the end of the eighth month."

The Cyclopaedia of Practical Medicine, William P Montgomery, 1834. pp. 503-4.
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  #147  
Old 02-10-2015, 06:33 PM
Errata Errata is offline
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Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
Actually, I was referring to this quote:

".....But the question of most practical importance is this, - supposing a woman to have been a mother, does there remain any mark or sign by which the fact of delivery can at any future period be established ?

The reply to this question which experience warrants appears to be, that in a very great majority of cases we should be totally unable to discover any such certain indication of a former delivery ; for although in some instances there are to be found appearances which point strongly to a probability of such an occurance having taken place, they are very seldom indeed such as ought to be considered decisive of the question ; while in other cases where parturition has occured repeatedly, not one of the signs usually insisted on is found to have continued permanent.

We very lately examined a patient who had born five children and nursed three of them, the youngest being now five years old ; the breasts were small, but neither flacid nor pendulous ; the nipples short, with not the least shade of brown colour in the areolae, which exhibited only the delicate rose colour so often observed on that part of the virgin breast ; there were neither lines nor spots of any kind on the abdomen ; the os uteri was small and natural ; the vagina contracted, and the fourchette perfectly entire. It should be mentioned that this lady never carried her children beyond the end of the eighth month."

The Cyclopaedia of Practical Medicine, William P Montgomery, 1834. pp. 503-4.
I've got an 1863 medical text written in New York that describes the slight looseness in the uterine muscles that never full retracts after birth, an unsealed cervix, which never tightens again to the extent it used to, and scarring in the abdomen from the shifting of organs. He also listed the lengthening of hip tendons, but that's not an absolute it turns out.

And just to be clear, I only have this book until Thursday, or until the wrapping paper fairies show up and take care of it. My dad's birthday is this weekend, and what do you get the retired gynecologist who has everything except old medical texts? The illustrations on breech births on the other hand, are hilarious. Those poor kids look so grumpy. So I don't have textbooks handy like, ever. But today I do.

Determining if a dead woman has given birth serves only two purposes. If she has been found dead, and she has delivered very recently, then it's useful for investigators to know to look for a baby. Other than that it's inclusive in an identification. If a coroner is looking at a woman who has theoretically had kids, and this body in front of him has given birth, then it supports an identification. If she apparently has not had kids, it doesn't 100% rule out a correct identification, but it sets back the identification enough to demand much more precise details.

2 full term kids though... he should have seen that. Each full term delivery, your body recovers a little less. And without an actual fetus in there, there is no 100% foolproof way to determine if a woman has ever had a child. It's determined solely for identification. He should have seen it. I get why he didn't. The knife wounds would have obscured the scar, if there were stab wounds that pared off uterine muscle while she was still alive, he couldn't judge the relative firmness of the organ. But stabbing through a cervix is harder than stabbing through a trachea,and cannot be done with a pen knife. That's where he would have seen it, and he didn't. I wouldn't even bet on him looking. It happens, and it happens to the best of doctors. But he did screw that up, fair and square.

Also apparently dead women can give birth, so I'm going to make this book go away now...
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  #148  
Old 02-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Ausgirl View Post
Prostitute murders are treated the same way to this very day, unless they're being murdered in droves. Look at what's happening in Canada.
I assume you are talking about the murders that happened quite a few years back in BC done by Robert Pickton the pig farmer, those are the only cases that involved known Prostitutes in recent times that Im aware of. Currently there are a large number of First nation women missing from all across the country, but without the prostitution element.


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  #149  
Old 02-17-2015, 05:54 PM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I assume you are talking about the murders that happened quite a few years back in BC done by Robert Pickton the pig farmer, those are the only cases that involved known Prostitutes in recent times that Im aware of. Currently there are a large number of First nation women missing from all across the country, but without the prostitution element.
Nope, nope.

Though the investigation of the missing women in Picton's case (prior to him being caught via a witness coming forward...) is a good example of what I'm talking about.

There's also the prostitute kicked to death by two men, who were charged with manslaughter and got 6 years, out in 4. The question there being, would they have gotten the same sentence if their victim was a middle class woman out on, say, a shopping trip?

Endless, endless examples of inequality. I used Canada as an example, because I'd been reading about cases there (involving prostitutes of no particular racial background, just the occupation in general, though it would be interesting to see how many of those missing first nation woman were actually on the game, financially vulnerable women make up a huge proportion of prostitutes and that's certainly a vulnerable group, and already marginalised - recent studies suggest this is around 12% of missing and murdered first nation women).

For one example (I'd give you more, but I currently am having net issues..) mention of recent suspected serial killer, suggesting multiple unsolved prostitute murders, article dated 2012:

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/01...n_1179237.html

Verging on off topic.. the point I was making is that prostitutes are easy, relatively safe marks for killers and always have been, probably since illegal street trade began. For some very obvious reasons. And they are still vulnerable on multiple levels, to this day.

Last edited by Ausgirl : 02-17-2015 at 06:11 PM.
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  #150  
Old 02-17-2015, 06:32 PM
Ausgirl Ausgirl is offline
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I'm so annoyed at myself.. I was just reading an article yesterday on an attack in London (roughly same time period, can't remember how close though), where a man had two different kinds of knives hidden up his sleeves.

And then I had to go out, and shut the puter down without bookmarking. Gah. I'll see if I can find it again. I thought it interesting, and very pertinent to this topic.
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