Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Robert Paul Time Issues - by Fisherman 2 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by Sherlock Houses 3 hours ago.
General Discussion: The Double Event - by Fisherman 6 hours ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by moste 9 hours ago.
General Discussion: Double event in Buck's Row? - by Joshua Rogan 11 hours ago.
Witnesses: One mention wonders - by Joshua Rogan 11 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
General Discussion: The Double Event - (13 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (4 posts)
Witnesses: Robert Paul Time Issues - (2 posts)
General Suspect Discussion: Kansas Physician Confirms Howard Report - (1 posts)
Dear Boss Letter: Thomas Bulling-CNA - (1 posts)
Witnesses: One mention wonders - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #111  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:22 AM
MysterySinger MysterySinger is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 340
Default

I'm not sure Leon Goldstein was whiter than white but, there again, no ripper either.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:42 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,216
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysterySinger View Post
I'm not sure Leon Goldstein was whiter than white but, there again, no ripper either.
you never know-he was carrying a shiny black bag! ; )
__________________
"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 03-20-2017, 07:19 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 934
Default

Mmm, an unidentified man spotted at the scene of a murder injecting himself into the case by going to the police to "clear himself".... classic serial killer behaviour!

On a serious note.....any reason to think Leon was a bit dodgy, MS, or just a feeling?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:19 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,762
Default

The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious, but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50.

So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:21 PM
Phil Carter Phil Carter is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious, but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50.

So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.
Hello Michael,

Hope you are well 😊

The thought occurs to me..if this man "cuts and goes inside the club"... exactly where does that put the idea of a late night "double event " ?.. as the police would have searched the club and talked to all those inside.
Now that takes time...no?



Phil
__________________
The fools are the men who will not be blamed for doing something wrong.They never did anything wrong...or did they?

Justice for the 96 = achieved
Accountability? ....
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:04 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
But my money's on them all being local prostitutes who murdered Liz for encroaching on their patch.
an easier but effective method, to rid liz from berner street, would have been for the women to beat her up rather than hire a prostitute assassin.

hi jr

you are right about the numbering of the houses. i found an XY map online, and it appeared that they ran even on that side of the road... so ,,3 doors down,, would be 34 berner street [i,m guessing]. Now i am not certain, yes or no, if the ,,2 doors down,, lady is 38 berner street or if they,re all fanny.

whole point is: were there an extra pair of eyes NOT seeing schwartz or liz on berner street?

it also made me think that he must have known that area extremely well to pull off that hat trick, local maybe...
__________________
There,s nothing new, only the unexplored.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 03-20-2017, 10:41 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 934
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
you are right about the numbering of the houses. i found an XY map online, and it appeared that they ran even on that side of the road... so ,,3 doors down,, would be 34 berner street [i,m guessing]. Now i am not certain, yes or no, if the ,,2 doors down,, lady is 38 berner street or if they,re all fanny.
The wording is specific in the articles;

"three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered" - the gateway was between no.40 and 42, so the three doors would be 40 (the club), 38 then 36 - Fanny's door.

"two doors from the club" - the club being no.40, two doors down would again be 36. *

"Mrs. Mortimer, living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy" - this is the only one that specifically mentions Fanny's name and address, yet miscalculates the number of doors. Unless it includes the gates to the yard as the first door.

Quote:
whole point is: were there an extra pair of eyes NOT seeing schwartz or liz on berner street?
Difficult to say for sure. My feeling is they were all the same woman, interviewed by different reporters over several hours and, in each, focusing on different aspects of what she saw.

Quote:
it also made me think that he must have known that area extremely well to pull off that hat trick, local maybe...
Hat trick? I'm pretty sure the ripper was responsible for a maximum of two, that night, not all three.


* of course, two doors the other way would be no.44 - Mrs Packer?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 03-20-2017, 11:12 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is online now
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 934
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
The fact that he didn't come forward until Tuesday of that week....a la Hutchinson....isn't in and of itself suspicious
Not suspicious at all really. Fanny's account was published on Monday, and only the Daily News and Evening News mentioned the man with the black bag. If he didn't read either of these then Tuesday seems a perfectly reasonable time for word of mouth to reach him and connect this report to himself.

Quote:
but when you consider that at 12:55-56...which is the time Fanny saw him, you have to put into consideration that Liz could very well have been inside the passage either being cut or bleeding out. Which suggests that the killer was still on the premises at that time. Fanny would have seen him exit via the gates if he left before 12:55 and after 12:50. So...does this guy cut and go inside the club, or cut and linger in the passageway or yard? Remember, they searched inside the club too.
It was very dark in the passageway - if club members walking to the side door couldn't be sure there was nobody lying bleeding on the ground, then Leon walking past and glancing at the club probably wouldn't have seen anything either.
Fanny seemed confidant that she would have seen anyone enter or leave the gates while she was at the door. Which is why she speculated that the killer must have entered the yard (with Liz) in the 4 minutes between her going inside and Louis arriving on his cart. Which fits well with the interruption theory, and the killer hiding in the shadows then leaving the yard when Louis goes inside the club to find his wife and a candle.
However, in one of the sightings Fanny (or whoever) does say that Leon might have come from the club, but in the other says he walked past....
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 03-21-2017, 08:01 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert St Devil View Post
It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock Mrs. Fanny Mortimer [apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan], living at 36, Berner-street, four doors from the scene of the tragedy heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time.

"I only noticed one person passing, just before I turned in. That was a young man walking up Berner-street, carrying a black bag in his hand."

Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard Diemschitz's pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband.

"I was just about going to bed, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway.

{or: I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by.}

I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the gate with her throat cut from ear to ear."
hi jr

good catch... with Mrs Packer.. but i think that we are correct in assuming the reported houses were in the direction of Commercial rather than Fairclough if that's the direction from where Diemschitz was arriving. Plus, it says "Mrs. Mortimer" was sleeping on the ground floor, front room... wouldn't Packer's storefront have been 'there'?

I 'frankensteined' the above story from the varying Evening News reports, Oct1. Other than the time discrepancy, the other contradictions, albeit minor, were their purpose for 'rushing' out the house, and when they learned about the murder. any thoughts?
__________________
There,s nothing new, only the unexplored.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 03-21-2017, 01:42 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Superintendent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,762
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Carter View Post
Hello Michael,

Hope you are well ��

The thought occurs to me..if this man "cuts and goes inside the club"... exactly where does that put the idea of a late night "double event " ?.. as the police would have searched the club and talked to all those inside.
Now that takes time...no?



Phil
Ive never believed this was a Double Event anyway Phil, so a killer trapped inside the club for a while doesn't bother me. I am well thanks, hope you are the same. I do not see anything similar with Polly, Annies and perhaps Kates killer, in the murder of Liz Stride. She got killed. Why? The million dollar question...but it sure wasn't for pm mutilating.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.