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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Maybrick, James

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  #1551  
Old Today, 04:27 AM
Observer Observer is offline
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Read Mr Orsam's piece on the Diary, and I really must say it is excellent. It seems then that Mike Barrett was capable of stringing a few sentences together, a far cry from Caz's assertion that he wasn't capable of filling in a sick note! Far worse though, are those posters who did not get to meet Mike Barrett, and blindly led by the likes of Caz cry "Barrett was a drunken sot, not capable of producing the Diary". Or words to that effect. In my opinion, Mike Barrett boxed then up like so many kippers
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  #1552  
Old Today, 04:28 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Letter published in the Lincolnshire newspaper, the Boston Guardian of 9 December 1893, from a J.P. O'Donoghue (referencing the use of John Fox's 'Book of Martyrs'), contains the sentence:

"Yes, he has proudly, - in the last years of the XIXth century, - out-foxed Fox himself."
Thanks, David, but that doesn't seem to be used in the same way. To me, this is saying that someone "did something more 'John Fox-ish' than John Fox himself", like someone might say "Prokofiev's Classical Symphony out-Mozarted Mozart". I don't think it's being used to mean "outsmarted", in the modern meaning of the word.

I can't see that someone at the end of the 19th Century could have been said to "outwit" or "get the better of" John Foxe, who died 400 years earlier.
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  #1553  
Old Today, 05:30 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
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Here's a new one!

Diary, p44: "Am I not a clever fellow. Out foxed them all, they will never know"

Earliest cited example for "outfox" in the Oxford English Dictionary is in 1962.

Attachment 18319

All five examples came from American/Canadian publications or authors. I don't know when the expression first came into common usage in Britain, but I'd imagine it was rather later.
I've found an earlier unambiguous reference, namely a 1949 cartoon featuring Droopy called "Out-Foxed". Again, this is an American source.
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  #1554  
Old Today, 05:53 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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From the South London Press, 25 August 1866:

"In the foreground, too, Bismarck, the astutest of the astute, just laughing as he felt how he had turned the tables upon the cleverest monarch in Europe; how he had outfoxed the oldest fox; and with a single move on the chess-board of war and diplomacy checkmated the king and won all on the board."
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  #1555  
Old Today, 05:56 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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Yorkshire Evening Post, 2 March 1900:

"Military men in Italy now express unbounded admiration of the English Generals, who, they say, "have out-foxed the fox, Cronje." "
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  #1556  
Old Today, 06:19 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Yorkshire Evening Post, 2 March 1900:

"Military men in Italy now express unbounded admiration of the English Generals, who, they say, "have out-foxed the fox, Cronje." "
That nails it, thanks.
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  #1557  
Old Today, 07:17 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
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That nails it, thanks.
Hi sam
Yeah and especially with englands long history of fox hunting I would find it hard to believe that out fox wasn't a rather common expression. Nice try though!
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  #1558  
Old Today, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
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Hi sam
Yeah and especially with englands long history of fox hunting I would find it hard to believe that out fox wasn't a rather common expression. Nice try though!
Thanks, Abby, but I was thinking more along the lines of Br'er Rabbit "outfoxing" Br'er Fox. It's not too difficult for a pack of twenty dogs and as many men on horseback to get the better of a wee fox: "the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable", as Oscar Wilde aptly described it
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