The last witness

[Tom_Wescott]

Tartar Saucy Jacky

When he gave them the chip?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Harry the Hawker]

There's something fishy about this thread, but I can't quite plaice it.

[perrymason]

It seems this thread has begun to flounder, lets see if we can coax it back up on its perch...walleye'm gonna try anyway.....

Mrs Maxwell.

The only witness that is warned before giving her story at Inquest, that it conflicts with other witness testimony. Now...at that time, there was no Hutchinson story. So what other witnesses did she conflict with?

The medical conclusions for one, and the only relevant sighting at that point, is Mary Ann Cox seeing Mary come home. I believe that indicates at that time, no suggestion of Mary ever leaving after 11:45pm Nov 8th was considered valid.

I think the investigators were fairly certain at the time of the Inquest, using only the medical data and Ms Cox at that point, that Mary had to have been dead earlier than Carrie Maxwell says she saw her. I believe its the medical data primarily....and I think they were capable of approximating TOD, even with the corpse literally wide open and quickly cooling....the room may have been warm enough to average out the timing. And they did have the stomach contents...they could approx the time of that meal based on its state of digestion.

Best regards all.

[Tom_Wescott]

Stewart Evans wrote an excellent essay some time back, I believe for Ripper Notes, in which he analyzed Mrs. Maxwell, the dubious Maurice Lewis, and other witnesses to determine the likelihood of what happened. It was a very good essay but the name is skipping me at the moment! Can anyone else out there recall and say what issue it was in? I'd like to recommend it to those with an interest in Mrs. Maxwell.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Stewart Evans wrote an excellent essay some time back, I believe for Ripper Notes, in which he analyzed Mrs. Maxwell, the dubious Maurice Lewis, and other witnesses to determine the likelihood of what happened. It was a very good essay but the name is skipping me at the moment! Can anyone else out there recall and say what issue it was in? I'd like to recommend it to those with an interest in Mrs. Maxwell.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

That sounds like a good read Tom, thanks for mentioning it....Ill await the forthcoming help....

Cheers.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

The medical conclusions for one, and the only relevant sighting at that point, is Mary Ann Cox seeing Mary come home. I believe that indicates at that time, no suggestion of Mary ever leaving after 11:45pm Nov 8th was considered valid.

The fact that Maxwell's evidence seemed to contradict the medical witnesses easily provides sufficient jusitification for Macdonald's questioning her story. Added to which, two non-medical witnesses testified to hearing a cry of "Murder" some 4-5 hours before Maxwell reported seeing Kelly.

In suggesting that Macdonald's question demonstrates a belief that Kelly did not go out after 11:45, you are perhaps reading a little too much into his words. Ingenious thinking, nonetheless.

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,The fact that Maxwell's evidence seemed to contradict the medical witnesses easily provides sufficient jusitification for Macdonald's questioning her story. Added to which, two non-medical witnesses testified to hearing a cry of "Murder" some 4-5 hours before Maxwell reported seeing Kelly.

In suggesting that Macdonald's question demonstrates a belief that Kelly did not go out after 11:45, you are perhaps reading a little too much into his words. Ingenious thinking, nonetheless.

Well Ill gladly setlle for ingenious Gareth, thanks....even if If you dont agree, it sure beats some other comments Ive received...and likely some Ive havent yet received.

All the best.

[caz]

Hi All,

I've always thought the accuracy of the estimated time of MJK's death would have depended a great deal on the amount of practice the medical profession had had with similar bodies found in a similar state and in similar circumstances. Preferably any previous cases would have had some other evidence which supported the medical estimate by helping to determine a time of death independently, such as a confession or a reliable eye witness report.

Like others, I can't believe Carrie Maxwell could have mistaken the day of her encounter unless she was such a seriously confused individual that she would have had trouble turning up at the right time and place to give her evidence.

She may have convinced herself that it was the murdered woman she had talked to, when it was actually someone else, except that we hear of nobody owning up to being the woman with the serious hangover.

She may have made it up, except that if she was an attention seeker she could only have hoped for negative attention, given that her account contradicted the medical men and nobody believed her.

If she did see MJK that morning, and it was MJK on that bed (and the medical men just didn't have enough experience at the time to provide an accurate estimate), so what? None of the witness accounts from the previous evening can be used to conclude who the killer could or could not have been, or when he finally left her dead in that room. Whoever was there to be seen that night could have returned to kill her the next morning, after she had been up and about for a while. It wouldn't ruin anyone's pet suspect theory as far as I can see. What difference would a few hours make?

Love,

Caz
X

[Gatsby]

I find it funny that so many people discount Maxwell's eyewitness account by saying she had only met MJK twice, or that she must be mistaken about the day etc. But then these same people treat eyewitness testimony from other people who supposedly saw JTR or someone suspected of being JTR with a prostitute and treat it as gospel. Yet those witnesses had never met either of the people they are supposedly seeing late at night across a street. It is ludicrous.

Maxwell not only saw MJK, she spoke with her... in broad daylight! She says so at the inquest despite warnings that what she is saying doesn't match up with the medical consensus!

Many people claim that she must have been mistaken about the day she had the conversation with MJK. I find that highly unlikely for one reason. The events of the day on which she claims to have spoken with MJK were so extraordinary that it would create an almost indelible memory. Miller's Court was a mob scene that day. A horrible murder had been commited, and that was all anyone in the area was talking about. Big events have a tendency to solidify one's memories to a much greater extent than on an "average" day.

For example, how many of you can remember quite a bit about your day on Sept. 11, 2001 even now nearly 7 years later? Imagine if you were asked about your experience only a few days later? I bet you could remember a lot.

All I am trying to point out is that Maxwell is probably the most reliable and believable eyewitness testimony we have, but she is disregarded so often because it does not fit with the prevailing theory of then and now, or it leads to fundamental assumptions about this case being completely changed... that's not a good reason to ignore her.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Gatsby,

An excellent post. It's about time we got over a few fundamental assumptions about this case.

Well done. Look forward to more from you.

Regards,

Simon

[Bob Hinton]

Maxwell

I won't be posting any more on this subject here, but instead will be writing an article for Ripperologist on Maxwell.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Gatsby,
I also found your post intresting, albeit I am bias.
I agree entirely that Mrs Maxwells evidence is extremely important, because of that two points should be raised.
A] If Mjk was seen on two occassions that morning at 815am, and 845 am , does that mean she was killed at some point after, even If many suggest it was unlikely, because of time allowed.?
B] If Mjk was seen on two occassions that morning at 815am. and 845am, does that mean she was not the victim at millers court?
The answer has to be one or the other...
Regards Richard.

[Chava]

Of those two possibilities I think the answer would most probably be (B) given the amount of damage that was done to that body.

But then I'm someone who believes Maxwell was mistaken...

[brummie]

While I find it hard to believe that MJK was seen by Maxwell at that time we have to at least consider the possibility because of the inexact nature of the methods used to determine time of death at that time. Add into the complication of the heat from the fire affecting timingsand it involves basically a lot of guesswork. The two doctors involved could not agree on a time so which should we believe,lets not forget there were similar problems with establishing the time of death for Chapman also. One point to consider if we assume Maxwell's sighting is correct then surely that makes the theory of another woman's body being used to enable MJK to start a new life implausible, would you hope to slip away from the scene by nipping round to the local pub for a drink in full view. As i say i think the official timing is still the most likely but Maxwell cant be dismissed lightly after all i'm sure between the statement and the inquest police would have tried to shake her timings but she remained conviced enough to repeat the story under oath.

[Gatsby]

Hi Gatsby,
I also found your post intresting, albeit I am bias.
I agree entirely that Mrs Maxwells evidence is extremely important, because of that two points should be raised.
A] If Mjk was seen on two occassions that morning at 815am, and 845 am , does that mean she was killed at some point after, even If many suggest it was unlikely, because of time allowed.?
B] If Mjk was seen on two occassions that morning at 815am. and 845am, does that mean she was not the victim at millers court?
The answer has to be one or the other...
Regards Richard.

Those are indeed the two conclusions one would have to come to. I don't lean one way or the other.

One thing that does occur to me though is that if one of the docs used temperature to determine time of death, wouldn't a body cool much faster if say: the majority of it was in pieces, and there was a gaping hole in the middle of it where all the organs used to be? I don't know, but I would be curious to find out.