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  • #31
    Some of the key ingredients of Hutchinson's story can be found, at least in embryo, in various newspapers published two whole days before Hutchinson gave his statement. It's worth noting in this regard that the Victoria Home, true to its philanthropic ethos, was known to provide its residents with a range of newspapers. These excerpts are taken from the Star, the Times, the Daily News and Morning Advertiser of 10th Nov:
    Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy [i.e. Sarah Lewis], came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed.

    In connection with Mrs. Kennedy, it may be mentioned that she and her sister, a widow, were, on Wednesday night last, accosted by a man when they were walking down the Bethnal Green road. It was about eight o'clock when this occurred. The man is described by Mrs. Kennedy as having on a pair of dark mixture trousers and a long dark overcoat. He wore a low crowned brown hat and carried a shiny black bag in his hand. Further, it was stated that he was a man of medium stature, with dark moustache, and that he had an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised.

    ------

    Mrs. Paumier said the man had a black moustache, was about five feet six inches high, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers. He also carried a black shiny bag, about a foot in depth and a foot and a half in length. Mrs. Paumier stated further that the same man accosted three women [is this a version of the Kennedy/Lewis Wednesday encounter?] whom she knows on Thursday night... One of the three young women she named, Sarah Roney [Lewis?] a girl about 20 years of age, corroborates her statement.

    -------

    [A] young woman, an associate of the deceased, states that about half-past ten o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more, but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, respectably dressed, came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money.

    She noticed three persons at the corner of the street near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache - talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad, and without any headgear. The man and woman appeared to be the worse for liquor, and she heard the man ask, "Are you coming." Whereupon the woman, who appeared to be obstinate, turned in an opposite direction to which the man apparently wished her to go.

    ------

    [A] young woman, an associate of the deceased, states that at about half-past 10 o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, who is described as respectably dressed, came up, and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man then accompanied the woman to her lodgings

    ------

    I say "in embryo", because the details subtly differ, but please note:

    * The sequence of events
    * The meeting by a pub and/or the corner of Dorset St
    * Kelly's asking a friend for money
    * Kelly's admission that she was desperate for money and that she must get some soon
    * The subsequent meeting with a man
    * The appearance of being drunk (aka "spreeish"?)
    * The man's moustache
    * His hat
    * The 18" inch bag he carried
    * His being well-dressed
    * His being 5'6" (direct hit there)
    * The reference to his peculiar gait (he "walked very sharp", according to Hutch)
    * His accompanying Kelly to her lodgings

    It strikes me as eminently feasible that Hutchinson took elements from these reports, embellished them into an entirely fictitious story, perhaps hoping to earn a few bob from the press/police.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 05-05-2017, 09:50 AM.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      Some of the key ingredients of Hutchinson's story can be found, at least in embryo, in various newspapers published two whole days before Hutchinson gave his statement. It's worth noting in this regard that the Victoria Home, true to its philanthropic ethos, was known to provide its residents with a range of newspapers. These excerpts are taken from the Star, the Times, the Daily News and Morning Advertiser of 10th Nov:
      Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy [i.e. Sarah Lewis], came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed.

      In connection with Mrs. Kennedy, it may be mentioned that she and her sister, a widow, were, on Wednesday night last, accosted by a man when they were walking down the Bethnal Green road. It was about eight o'clock when this occurred. The man is described by Mrs. Kennedy as having on a pair of dark mixture trousers and a long dark overcoat. He wore a low crowned brown hat and carried a shiny black bag in his hand. Further, it was stated that he was a man of medium stature, with dark moustache, and that he had an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised.

      ------

      Mrs. Paumier said the man had a black moustache, was about five feet six inches high, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers. He also carried a black shiny bag, about a foot in depth and a foot and a half in length. Mrs. Paumier stated further that the same man accosted three women [is this a version of the Kennedy/Lewis Wednesday encounter?] whom she knows on Thursday night... One of the three young women she named, Sarah Roney [Lewis?] a girl about 20 years of age, corroborates her statement.

      -------

      [A] young woman, an associate of the deceased, states that about half-past ten o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more, but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, respectably dressed, came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money.

      She noticed three persons at the corner of the street near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache - talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad, and without any headgear. The man and woman appeared to be the worse for liquor, and she heard the man ask, "Are you coming." Whereupon the woman, who appeared to be obstinate, turned in an opposite direction to which the man apparently wished her to go.

      ------

      [A] young woman, an associate of the deceased, states that at about half-past 10 o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, who is described as respectably dressed, came up, and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man then accompanied the woman to her lodgings

      ------

      I say "in embryo", because the details subtly differ, but please note:

      * The sequence of events
      * The meeting by a pub and/or the corner of Dorset St
      * Kelly's asking a friend for money
      * Kelly's admission that she was desperate for money and that she must get some soon
      * The subsequent meeting with a man
      * The appearance of being drunk (aka "spreeish"?)
      * The man's moustache
      * His hat
      * The 18" inch bag he carried
      * His being well-dressed
      * His being 5'6" (direct hit there)
      * The reference to his peculiar gait (he "walked very sharp", according to Hutch)
      * His accompanying Kelly to her lodgings

      It strikes me as eminently feasible that Hutchinson took elements from these reports, embellished them into an entirely fictitious story, perhaps hoping to earn a few bob from the press/police.
      HI Sam
      awesome-thanks for posting. Yes I remember this was discussed at length somewhile back. It seems hutch was patching his story together in the days before he came forward.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
        awesome-thanks for posting. Yes I remember this was discussed at length somewhile back. It seems hutch was patching his story together in the days before he came forward.
        Thanks, Abby. There are arguably elements of news reports from previous cases in Hutchinson's accounts (police and press statements), but I thought I'd better stick to the Kelly murder.

        If my suspicions are right, Hutch didn't half like to read his newspapers, and kudos to the Victoria Home for laying on such a good supply for its customers.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          Some of the key ingredients of Hutchinson's story can be found, at least in embryo, in various newspapers published two whole days before Hutchinson gave his statement. It's worth noting in this regard that the Victoria Home, true to its philanthropic ethos, was known to provide its residents with a range of newspapers. These excerpts are taken from the Star, the Times, the Daily News and Morning Advertiser of 10th Nov:
          Their married daughter, a woman named Mrs. Kennedy [i.e. Sarah Lewis], came home, however, at a late hour. Passing the Britannia, commonly known as Ringer's, at the top of Dorset street, at three o'clock on the Friday morning, she saw the deceased talking to a respectably dressed man, whom she identified as having accosted her a night or two before. She passed them without taking any notice, and went home to bed.

          In connection with Mrs. Kennedy, it may be mentioned that she and her sister, a widow, were, on Wednesday night last, accosted by a man when they were walking down the Bethnal Green road. It was about eight o'clock when this occurred. The man is described by Mrs. Kennedy as having on a pair of dark mixture trousers and a long dark overcoat. He wore a low crowned brown hat and carried a shiny black bag in his hand. Further, it was stated that he was a man of medium stature, with dark moustache, and that he had an extremely awkward gait, which could at once be recognised.

          ------

          Mrs. Paumier said the man had a black moustache, was about five feet six inches high, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers. He also carried a black shiny bag, about a foot in depth and a foot and a half in length. Mrs. Paumier stated further that the same man accosted three women [is this a version of the Kennedy/Lewis Wednesday encounter?] whom she knows on Thursday night... One of the three young women she named, Sarah Roney [Lewis?] a girl about 20 years of age, corroborates her statement.

          -------

          [A] young woman, an associate of the deceased, states that about half-past ten o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more, but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, respectably dressed, came up and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money.

          She noticed three persons at the corner of the street near the Britannia public house. There was a man - a young man, respectably dressed, and with a dark moustache - talking to a woman whom she did not know, and also a female poorly clad, and without any headgear. The man and woman appeared to be the worse for liquor, and she heard the man ask, "Are you coming." Whereupon the woman, who appeared to be obstinate, turned in an opposite direction to which the man apparently wished her to go.

          ------

          [A] young woman, an associate of the deceased, states that at about half-past 10 o'clock on Thursday night she met the murdered woman at the corner of Dorset-street, who said to her that she had no money and, if she could not get any, would never go out any more but would do away with herself. Soon afterwards they parted, and a man, who is described as respectably dressed, came up, and spoke to the murdered woman Kelly and offered her some money. The man then accompanied the woman to her lodgings

          ------

          I say "in embryo", because the details subtly differ, but please note:

          * The sequence of events
          * The meeting by a pub and/or the corner of Dorset St
          * Kelly's asking a friend for money
          * Kelly's admission that she was desperate for money and that she must get some soon
          * The subsequent meeting with a man
          * The appearance of being drunk (aka "spreeish"?)
          * The man's moustache
          * His hat
          * The 18" inch bag he carried
          * His being well-dressed
          * His being 5'6" (direct hit there)
          * The reference to his peculiar gait (he "walked very sharp", according to Hutch)
          * His accompanying Kelly to her lodgings

          It strikes me as eminently feasible that Hutchinson took elements from these reports, embellished them into an entirely fictitious story, perhaps hoping to earn a few bob from the press/police.
          Hi Sam,

          Clearly a very comprehensive analysis and you may well be right. However, wasn't Hutchinson unemployed? That seems significant to me because I would have thought someone in such straitened circumstances would be highly unlikely to purchase newspapers as that would clearly represent an extravagance.

          On that basis, how likely is it that he would even be aware of the reports you refer to, let alone have acquired detailed knowledge of them?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            Hutchinson's 'suspect' apparently "looked Jewish".
            The word "stereotyping" comes to mind.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by John G View Post
              Clearly a very comprehensive analysis and you may well be right. However, wasn't Hutchinson unemployed? That seems significant to me because I would have thought someone in such straitened circumstances would be highly unlikely to purchase newspapers as that would clearly represent an extravagance.
              Hello John. The Victoria Home supplied a range of newspapers to its residents without charge. In this and other aspects, it was more progressive than the average doss-house.

              Incidentally, Hutch's unemployed status could have provided the incentive to earn a few bob from a made-up story - assuming it was made up, of course.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                Hello John. The Victoria Home supplied a range of newspapers to its residents without charge. In this and other aspects, it was more progressive than the average doss-house.

                Incidentally, Hutch's unemployed status could have provided the incentive to earn a few bob from a made-up story - assuming it was made up, of course.
                Hello Sam,

                Thanks. That's interesting and is something I was obviously unaware of. Of course, it would also assume that Hutchinson was literate!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by John G View Post
                  Thanks. That's interesting and is something I was obviously unaware of. Of course, it would also assume that Hutchinson was literate!
                  Literacy had been improving among the working-class for some time in the Late Victorian Period and, as a young man in his 20s (as I believe he was), he'd have had a better education than those of his parents' generation.

                  At least he seems to have had pretty decent handwriting, if his signatures are anything to go by - which is a good sign
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    Literacy had been improving among the working-class for some time in the Late Victorian Period and, as a young man in his 20s (as I believe he was), he'd have had a better education than those of his parents' generation.

                    At least he seems to have had pretty decent handwriting, if his signatures are anything to go by - which is a good sign
                    And of course his suspect description was very detailed-but not necessarily accurate!- which might also suggest a reasonable level of education.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by John G View Post
                      And of course his suspect description was very detailed-but not necessarily accurate!- which might also suggest a reasonable level of education.
                      That's a very interesting point, John. Perhaps we should look for elements of Mr Astrakhan in the works of Dickens and Shakespeare
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by John G View Post
                        Hi Sam,

                        Clearly a very comprehensive analysis and you may well be right. However, wasn't Hutchinson unemployed? That seems significant to me because I would have thought someone in such straitened circumstances would be highly unlikely to purchase newspapers as that would clearly represent an extravagance.

                        On that basis, how likely is it that he would even be aware of the reports you refer to, let alone have acquired detailed knowledge of them?
                        Hi John
                        As Sam pointed out there are also press accounts from previous murders that it seems Hutch cribbed from, sometimes verbatim.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I really don't have a personal opinion on whether Hutchinson was telling the truth or not. I will say this, though. He saw the man for several minutes even before they reached Miller's Court. Hutch was heading north on Commercial Street when he passed MJK heading south toward Thrawl Street. After she asked him for money she continued toward Thrawl Street. Hutch then went up and "stood against the lamp of the Queens Head public house and watched him". The man must have been approaching from behind Hutch when he encountered MJK because Hutch states "...a man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly . This was after Hutch left her and continued north on Commercial Street. So if she was heading south and the man was coming from the opposite direction, wouldn't that mean the man was coming from where Hutch just came from, toward Whitechapel Road? Could Hutch have noticed the man trailing him and had a looksey then, too?

                          Mary Kelly must have done an about face with the man and headed back to her lodging at Miller's Court. As they approached Dorset Street Hutch was glaring from the Queens Head when he stooped to see the man's face and THEN he followed them down Dorset Street. He actually had a lot of time to look at this man, in my opinion.
                          Last edited by jerryd; 05-05-2017, 04:27 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            It strikes me as eminently feasible that Hutchinson took elements from these reports, embellished them into an entirely fictitious story, perhaps hoping to earn a few bob from the press/police.
                            Pick any six articles in the press today, learn them off by heart and then restate everything to two different people, on two separate days.
                            See how many you can recall correctly, and see how many faults you make between the two re-tellings of your story.

                            Then ask yourself, to what end, why would I do that?
                            Then tell us why Hutchinson would go to such trouble.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              Thanks, Abby. There are arguably elements of news reports from previous cases in Hutchinson's accounts (police and press statements), but I thought I'd better stick to the Kelly murder.

                              If my suspicions are right, Hutch didn't half like to read his newspapers, and kudos to the Victoria Home for laying on such a good supply for its customers.
                              Except that Sarah Lewis confirmed the existence of another couple in the street at the same time as she saw her 'lurker'. The woman being hatless, and the worse for drink. The couple went up the court together, while the lurker stood watching.

                              Hutchinson's basic story is verified.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                                Hutchinson's basic story is verified.
                                Alternatively, the basic recipe for his story appeared in the papers two (and a half) days before he gave his statement.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                                Comment

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