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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Hutchinson, George

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  #121  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:16 AM
rjpalmer rjpalmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Hard to believe.
I don't know. Maybe my ears are keen to it because I'm not British, but when I read contemporary trial proceedings or inquest reports in The Times or some other London paper, it seems like it was almost pulling teeth for the average British "lower class" (ahem) witness to say something bad about the "accused."

"But, my lady, did not your husband beat your child every night? Did not you fear he would murder it?"

"O, he had a terrible temper, sir, and sent us limping to the infirmary many a time, but no, sir, he wouldn't hurt a fly, and never did I fear it."

I come across it all the time.
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  #122  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:29 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
"But, my lady, did not your husband beat your child every night? Did not you fear he would murder it?"

"O, he had a terrible temper, sir, and sent us limping to the infirmary many a time, but no, sir, he wouldn't hurt a fly, and never did I fear it."

I come across it all the time.
I daresay, RJ, but here we have a shifty-looking "forriner" consorting with a street-walker in the heart of Ripper country and in the middle of the Ripper scare. Why did Hutchinson really take such an interest in this man, and pay so much detailed attention to him, if he had not sensed that something was out of the ordinary?

To me, it doesn't quite stack up.
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  #123  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:40 AM
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caz caz is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Which doesn't quite square with his rather creepy description of Astrakhan Man - "he looked at me stern", "very surly looking", "Jewish/foreign appearance", "small parcel with a kind of strap around it", etc. This at the height of the Ripper scare, and Hutch thought this guy was nothing to worry about? Hard to believe.
I agree, Gareth. But to be fair, Hutch was meant to be speaking with hindsight and giving a description of a potential suspect for Kelly's murder. I'm sure he's not the only witness who didn't suspect anything bad was about to happen until after the event, when they thought back and 'remembered' - or imagined - sinister details they hadn't picked up on at the time. The basic story has a ring of truth about it in a way. He couldn't have suspected anything, or he wouldn't have simply walked away, indifferent to Kelly's fate. So I do think it's entirely possible he never saw who was in the room with Kelly, but assumed she was just 'entertaining', which would explain why it didn't occur to him that it might be the ripper until he heard about the murder, and then he thought it wise to conjure up a suitably sinister 'guest' on the inside while he was only ever on the outside.

Love,

Caz
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  #124  
Old 12-14-2017, 07:56 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
He claimed that he'd known Kelly for five years, which - if her biography has any grains of truth in it - is difficult to believe in itself, as she apparently had only moved to London 4 years previously. That aside, we can say with some confidence that she'd only arrived in Spitalfields within the last two years, prior to which she'd lived at Stepney and around the Ratcliff Highway. To my mind it's rather unlikely that Hutchinson's trajectory took him to those places at the same time as Kelly and that, at best, he was likely exaggerating the length of their acquaintance; at worst, he made it up in order to make his encounter with her, and the subsequent interest he took in her liaison with Astrakhan Man, seem more plausible.
Wasn't it Maurice Lewis who claimed to have known Kelly 5 years? According to Abberline's 12th Nov report, Hutchinson had known her for "about 3 years".
That said, most of your point stands.

Incidentally, Abberline also tells us the reason George gave for watching the pair;

"An important statement has been made by a man named George Hutchinson which I forward herewith. I have interrogated him this evening and I am of the opinion his statement is true. He informed me that he had occasionally given the deceased a few shillings, and that he had known her about 3 years. Also that he was surprised to see a man so well dressed in her company which caused him to watch them."

If Abberline had winkled a more convincing reason out of Hutchinson, I'm sure he'd have informed his superiors.
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  #125  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:03 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Which doesn't quite square with his rather creepy description of Astrakhan Man - "he looked at me stern", "very surly looking", "Jewish/foreign appearance", "small parcel with a kind of strap around it", etc. This at the height of the Ripper scare, and Hutch thought this guy was nothing to worry about? Hard to believe.
he even added the red hankercheif of sailor man and a dastardly curled up mustache to boot!
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #126  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:12 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
I daresay, RJ, but here we have a shifty-looking "forriner" consorting with a street-walker in the heart of Ripper country and in the middle of the Ripper scare. Why did Hutchinson really take such an interest in this man, and pay so much detailed attention to him, if he had not sensed that something was out of the ordinary?

To me, it doesn't quite stack up.
because Aman didn't really exist and Hutch apparent interest in him has to justify how he got such a great description of him.
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #127  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:14 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by caz View Post
I agree, Gareth. But to be fair, Hutch was meant to be speaking with hindsight and giving a description of a potential suspect for Kelly's murder. I'm sure he's not the only witness who didn't suspect anything bad was about to happen until after the event, when they thought back and 'remembered' - or imagined - sinister details they hadn't picked up on at the time. The basic story has a ring of truth about it in a way. He couldn't have suspected anything, or he wouldn't have simply walked away, indifferent to Kelly's fate. So I do think it's entirely possible he never saw who was in the room with Kelly, but assumed she was just 'entertaining', which would explain why it didn't occur to him that it might be the ripper until he heard about the murder, and then he thought it wise to conjure up a suitably sinister 'guest' on the inside while he was only ever on the outside.

Love,

Caz
X
hi Caz
the basic story does have a ring of truth to it, until Aman enters the scene!
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"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"

-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #128  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:21 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Originally Posted by rjpalmer View Post
I don't see it that way.

Here is what Hutchinson said:

"After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed."

But surely that doesn't mean to say he just now realizes (at 3 a.m.) that the Victoria W. M.'s Home was closed?

I don't see it. These were his usual digs; 'closed' means 'curfew,' and he would have known the curfew. Half-way from Romford he already knew he was 'screwed,' and this is confirmed when, reaching the East End, he hears the clock strike 2 a.m. Hence he loiters in Fashion & Dean & environs until 3 a.m. and then wanders around until daybreak, because, he states, "the place where I usually sleep was closed." (Almost an afterthought after explaining the entire night's movements). That's how I've always read it.
Me too. Hutchinson had just passed the Victoria Home when he met Kelly, so was in the perfect position to know then whether or not he could sleep there that night.

Incidentally, I always assumed he left Dorset Street around 3am because the weather took a turn for the worse - Mrs Cox went back to her room at that time, and said it was raining hard (although the two events aren't necessarily linked, it always seemed to me like a good reason to get off the streets).
But if there was shelter where he was, leaving it to walk the streets makes less sense.
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  #129  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:21 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Don't forget, J. Best and John Gardner also described a well-dressed individual with a similar appearance to Astrakhan Man seen with Stride on the night of her murder.
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  #130  
Old 12-14-2017, 08:34 AM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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For what it's worth, Dew's memoirs mention the well-dressed East End criminal gang from The Blind Beggar....presumably they weren't afraid to walk the streets of Spitalfields at night.
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