The Ripper & surgical skill

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Excessive post-mortem mutilations on a Whitechapel prostitute with a knife to slightly different excessive post-mortem mutilations on a Whitechapel prostitute with a knife isn't a great leap in comparison to most MO changes.

Yes, multiple stabbing is quite different as far as I am concerned and really not that unusual. And Tabram's stabs was not necessarily 'post-mortem' either. But as you say, this is not a Tabram thread and this has all been said before.

who is Tabram's killer a "pussycat" in comparison to, besides "Jack the Ripper"?

Well, Tabram's killer - although brutal enough - is certainly not that spectacular compared to people like Greenacre, Burke and Hare, Norman Thorne, Luetgert, Wainwright, Bury or Crippen - most of them active before the Ripper murders, a couple of them slightly afterwards. And these murders were performed under much more unexpected circumstances.
But still people think that Tabram's murder was 'exceptional' in spite of the fact that she indulged in the most dangerous female occupation on the planet and were even more likely than other women to sooner or later to fall victim to an abnormal person. It is silly to say the least.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Certainly, no criminologist or expert in true crime have ever ruled Tabram out.

Wrong, Sam. I certainly know of a couple of people who do and they are no amateurs. But they will have to speak for themselves - I won't drag them into this discussion.

Ok, back to the topic at hand, I am sorry for the diversion.


All the best

[Natalie Severn]

Hi All,
We do have a contemporary scenario actually with a man serving sentence in Broadmoor for a murder of almost the same savagery and methodology as Mary Kelly.In the past two years DNA appears to be linking him to another horrific murder on Wimbledon Common some years back where a young woman was stabbed to death in a frenzied attack very similar to that of Martha Tabram.No trial has yet taken place for this new development but it has been reported in the papers that it will at some point in the future.
So there you have two seemingly very disparate killings quite likely carried out by the same man.
Best Wishes
Norma

[Sam Flynn]

Wrong, Sam.

...you mean "Ben", methinks

[Ben]

Yes, multiple stabbing is quite different as far as I am concerned and really not that unusual.

Not different enough though, Glenn. Nichols received stab wounds too. Stabbing and shooting is different, but there are serial killers who have done both, and on those grounds Tabram must responsibly considered a realistic candidate for inclusion in the ripper's tally. From a criminological perspective, there's no historical basis to justify a confident exclusion.

As for Tabram's murder not being exceptional, I think it wise to heed Sugden's thoughts on the subject:

"...both crimes, even amidst the violence of the Victorian East End, had been remarkable for their savagery. The last point, perhaps, was more evident then than it is now and the Ripper buffs today, who so casually disregard the George Yard tragedy as "just another murder", would do well to consider the impact it made upon Martha Tabram's contemporaries. In his summing up George Collier, the deputy coroner, spoke of it as "one of the most brutal (crimes) that had occured for some years...almost beyond belief".

And newsmen appeared genuinely appalled by the rage of Tabram's killer...on 11 August, the East London Observer devoted nearly two columns to a murder it considered "so unique and mysterious"

Not sure if we're resiging ourselves to a permanent thread derailment here, but....!

Best regards,
Ben

[Dan Norder]

Wrong, Sam. I certainly know of a couple of people who do and they are no amateurs. But they will have to speak for themselves - I won't drag them into this discussion.

Whenever you try to back up any of your wild claims about what should be common knowledge you start out trying to present it as being what all professionals say and then, when every example brought up by anyone says the exact opposite, you start talking about mysterious unnamed professionals who know what they are talking about, really they do, and who all wholeheartedly agree with you... in private.

You seem to have a bad case of imaginary friends. I thought people were supposed to grow out of that by your age.

And, please, stop trying to turn every thread on these boards into a debate about which victims you think should be linked. There are already other threads specifically about this topic, and your claims have been thoroughly debunked there already.

[perrymason]

Dan says.,.

"..you try to back up any of your wild claims about what should be common knowledge you start out trying to present it as being what all professionals say and then, when every example brought up by anyone says the exact opposite, you start talking about mysterious unnamed professionals who know what they are talking about, really they do, and who all wholeheartedly agree with you... in private. "

Just so the mud sticks where it belongs, Glenn has read opinions on this site, as have I, that belong to people very well respected in this area of study, and some disagree with Dans opinions... shockingly enough...in one instance, with the entire premise Dan bases his comments on,.....how many victims the Ripper can logically be assigned. Hardly imaginary "friends", since Im speaking of perhaps the worlds leading authority on the cases. Something which, despite Dans assurances, he is not.

You do not have the support of all the "experts" Dan, you have support from the ones that agree with your opinions....which I now realize are the only ones you would seek out or validate anyway.

Best regards.

[Sasha]

Hi Mike,To an extent, but only in the sense that few men alive at the time (or before or since, for that matter) wouldn't have known roughly where a woman's womb was located.

You'd be surprised, Sam! I, myself, was surprised how low down in the abdomen the uterus is - following an ultrasound! And I'm a woman. My guess is that most people really don't know the precise location of the womb! Also, a butcher would have only worked on animals. I'm not sure the location of the womb in animals mirrors that of humans!

Sasha

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I don't know about that, Sasha,

I am no expert, but actuallly pigs are said to have the same amatomical organ disposition as humans.

In any case a butcher is more likely than any other ordinary man, unless you believe that he must have been a surgeon, which I think several indicators show he most likely wasn't.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Whenever you try to back up any of your wild claims about what should be common knowledge you start out trying to present it as being what all professionals say and then, when every example brought up by anyone says the exact opposite, you start talking about mysterious unnamed professionals who know what they are talking about, really they do, and who all wholeheartedly agree with you... in private.

You seem to have a bad case of imaginary friends. I thought people were supposed to grow out of that by your age.

And, please, stop trying to turn every thread on these boards into a debate about which victims you think should be linked. There are already other threads specifically about this topic, and your claims have been thoroughly debunked there already.

And why don't you please stop bashing me around with your bullying every time I write a post. Seems like your constant pasttime these days is to chase me around on every thread as an excuse to deliver your usual nonsense without any substance.
As for 'experts' you know perfectly well who I am talking about. You just decide to ignore certain people in the field because what they say don't suit your argument. Just like you ironically enough keep your mouth shut everytime someone mentions Robert K Ressler, Vernon J Geberth and Paul Britton in the connection with domestic murder.

So why don't crawl back under the rock from which you came from and stay there.

[downonwhores]

Butcher

Hi Glenn,

How are you doing? I tend to agree with you about the method although I won't absoultely rule out a surgeon. I think and the evidence shows that whoever killed the women knew how to kill. There are no hesitation marks around the throat nor around the mutliated areas which gives me reason to believe that Jack either killed animals before as his profession like a butcher, slaughterman or he has murdered and mutilated other prostitutes which we haven't encountered.
I think the first explanation is the best one that Jack probably knew about dissection and throat slitting from his profession or personal experience.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi downonwhores,

And how are you?

I agree, and that's why I tend to rule out a medical man. Surgeons rarely cuts people's throats, and they are also not used to work under such conditions.
A butcher/slaughterman has the necessary rapid speed and the anatomical knowledge to efficiently cut someone's throat cuts as well as how to quickly open up a body. These elements all fits the trademarks of a butcher much better than a surgeon.

All the best

[The Good Michael]

I'd agree with Glenn on this one. Though I'd also add that many people must have had some skill or practice at butchery as of necessity. My father, though from a different era, once killed and butchered our pet sheep, and quite quickly, though he owned a construction company. This was the first time he had done this, though he had previously butchered deer that he had hunted, being a Minnesotan. I recall also tring our hand at cattle for a few years, and he must have butchered a few of them as well. My guess is that, all told, he must have killed and butchered at least 10 animals, and perhaps more, and this over a span of years. He was no expert, but could do it. Like many men of his generation, he could and had to do many things somewhat well. It is my belief that Eastenders may have had the same situation.

Cheers,

Mike

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Exactly, Good Michael.
I find that to be very likely indeed. Not to mention that most people among the working class would know how to handle a knife since it was a common and very ordinary working tool. Murder by throat cut was for that reason more common in those days than they are today.

It might be the taking of organs like the womb and the kidney that makes me think of someone who at least may have had a previous experience from working with butchery.

All the best

[Fisherman]

To me it would be no less credible to opt for a man who had done no butchering of his own - but who lived in circumstances where he could see it being done, and perhaps be aroused by it.
That could explain the confidence in the cuts - as well as the disability to decapitate, as evinced in the Chapman and Kelly cases. A trained butcher would have been able to decapitate with no problems at all.

The best, all!

Fisherman