The Thames Torso Murders questions

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

Perhaps more women were dying than men.

Oh, you're there, Trevor! Hello.
More women in the 20-40 age group, and with no cause of death apparent though? You'd think anyone who'd died a death of natural causes in the workhouse or whatever (and passed over to the anatomists) would have died of something?!

[Trevor Marriott]

Debs
I wish I has all the answers but sadly I dont certainly what i have suggested should not be totally ignored.

Perhaps female bodies were or more interest to anatomnists than males

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

Perhaps more women were dying than men.

I think you have to keep an open mind its wrong to suggest that every torso or every body part fished out of the thames was from a murder.

You added on to that post Trevor...naughty.
I don't believe for one minute that all the dismembered bodies that turned up in the Thames or wherever where connected, I'll say that much.

[Trevor Marriott]

You added on to that post Trevor...naughty.
I don't believe for one minute that all the dismembered bodies that turned up in the Thames or wherever where connected, I'll say that much.

Wow
You and I agreeing on something must rain tomorrowm then ! lol

Clearly there is no direct evidence to show any were murdered.

[Debra A]

..except for four of them. Let me finish!
You have to admit Trevor, that not many anatomists would get rid of a body including it's clothing? And we have two of those 1887-89

[lynn cates]

syncope

Hello Debs, Trevor. I thought that the Pinchin st business was listed as heart syncope? The doctor's suggestion was that the throat was cut but the marks were obliterated when decapitated.

Cheers.
LC

[Trevor Marriott]

You didnt read one of my previous posts. The anatomists would probabaly pay someone to get rid of the torso or parts.

As is documented there grave doubts about many of these so called murders.

[Debra A]

You didnt read one of my previous posts. The anatomists would probabaly pay someone to get rid of the torso or parts.

As is documented there grave doubts about many of these so called murders.

But a leg, still clad in it's stocking?

[Trevor Marriott]

But a leg, still clad in it's stocking?

Puts whole new meaning to "getting a leg over"

[Debra A]

Hello Debs, Trevor. I thought that the Pinchin st business was listed as heart syncope? The doctor's suggestion was that the throat was cut but the marks were obliterated when decapitated.

Cheers.
LC

Lynn, that could have happened in any of these torso cases I guess?
I don't get the 'clean' murder thing.
If someone had their throat cut, but was then decapitated , how would we know?

[lynn cates]

outflow

Hello Debs.

"If someone had their throat cut, but was then decapitated, how would we know?"

Precisely. The doctor thought it was death from syncope but could not trace the blood outflow. Hence the conjecture of a cut throat masked by decapitation.

Cheers.
LC

[sleekviper]

I don't know, but wouldn't a throat cut appear different than a decapitation on the heart? If the throat is cut, isn't the brain frantically trying to signal the heart to pump blood, but no such signal since no connection with a decapitation so signs of stress on the heart ventricles should appear different between the two?

[mariab]

It was certainly suggested in the case of Elizabeth Jackson, who was quite advanced in pregnancy at the time of her death, and also in the Tottenham cases in 84 I believe. The thing with Elizabeth is that no abortion was actually performed. The foetus was removed from Elizabeth's uterus through a 5 inch incision, after her death. There is still the possibility that she was looking to end her pregnancy though and something went wrong.

Debs, might I please inquire, as I have absolutely no knowledge about this: Did Victorian women seek to end their pregnacies at such an advanced state as Elizabeth Jackson was in? Doesn't it make more sense that they would have tried it at an earlier stage?

If someone had their throat cut, but was then decapitated, how would we know?

I don't know, but wouldn't a throat cut appear different than a decapitation on the heart? (...) signs of stress on the heart ventricles should appear different between the two?

Not sure about Victorian medicine, but today it's absolutely feasible to figure out if someone was decapitated before or after death. The lungs, the heart would give different evidence for each scenario. In a decapitation after death the body in question would show absolutely no vital reaction to the decapitation.
Even with Victorian medicine, if the killer murdered her through a cut to the jugular and decapitated her postmortem, the doctors should have been able to tell. Also, murder by decapitation is much harder/trickier to “perform“ than cutting someone's jugular.

(Hi Sleek, long time no see. Hope you're fine.)

[lynn cates]

sequence

Hello Viper. If I understand it properly, the idea was that 1. the throat was cut, leading to 2. rapid blood loss which, quickly led to 3. heart syncope and death. Afterwards, the head was removed, thus obliterating the traces of the initial throat cutting.

Cheers.
LC

[Lechmere]

In the absence of a suspect through whom we can determine motive and opportunity, it would I think be unwise to discount the distinct possibility that the Pinchin Street case is part of the Ripper sequence - given that it was the result of a violent attack with a sharp instrument upon a woman of roughly the right age group, in the same killing ground and within the same period.

I would guess that unless decapitation was performed by some sort of home-made guillotine, the detectable signs of a deteremined decapitation would seem similar to a throat cut followed by a later decapitation, as the decapitation would take some time to carry out and the initial stages would almost certainly be similar to a simple throat cut.