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  #21  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:49 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by Craig H View Post
Hi Pierre

What do you mean by look at "the word stem" ? I'm not familiar with that (linguistics ?) phrase

Craig
Hi Craig,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_stem

I donīt like Wikipedia but this will do for basic knowledge.

And also basically, If one doesnīt know anything about word stems, one can not know much about problematic texts.

Regards, Pierre
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  #22  
Old 03-06-2016, 01:58 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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That theory is based on ideas about jewish history. Still inside the same old box.
It's got nothing to do with Jewish history or mythology Pierre. Those three individuals don't even exist in Jewish mythology. They are part of Masonic mythology and tradition.

The word "Juwes" is not only not in the same box as the word "Jews" it is not even in the vicinity of the box.
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  #23  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:00 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
No we are not in the same box because the derivation of the supposed (but actually non-existent) Masonic word "Juwes" was said to come from the names Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum, i.e. the three Juwes. It had nothing to do with anyone being Jewish, and no connection with the English word "Jews".
The names of the "ruffians" and the myth would not exist without the jewish mythology, so you are wrong. The three ruffians belong to a jewish myth based on 1s Kings and 2nd Chronicles. We are still in the same old box. What would happen if we forgot about the box?
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  #24  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:02 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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But how could one find that - if one had entirely forgotten about the word? Then one would not look for it.
What ARE you talking about Pierre?

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So what other uses of a dictionary could there be?
I dunno. Fixing a wobbly table? Smacking someone round the back of the head? Myself, I tend to use it for looking up words. And the word in question is not to be found in the dictionary.
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  #25  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:12 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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The names of the "ruffians" and the myth would not exist without the jewish mythology, so you are wrong. The three ruffians belong to a jewish myth based on 1s Kings and 2nd Chronicles. We are still in the same old box. What would happen if we forgot about the box?
I am not wrong Pierre.

1st Kings and 2nd Chronicles contain nothing more than the story of King Hiram of Tyre sending Hiram [Abiff] to build Solomon's Temple.

Upon that basic story a Masonic legend was built about the murder of Hiram Abiff by the three ruffians, Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jewish history or mythology. It is purely masonic.

Completely out of the box.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:15 PM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Pierre

given that JUWES does not exist in any dictionary what is the stem of that word? I am struggling here? As you know in English the stem often varies little from the actual word itself
if we take JEW has the stem, are you suggesting we ignore the actually word completely?

steve
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  #27  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:15 PM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
The names of the "ruffians" and the myth would not exist without the jewish mythology, so you are wrong. The three ruffians belong to a jewish myth based on 1s Kings and 2nd Chronicles. We are still in the same old box. What would happen if we forgot about the box?
Have you a source that supports this claim? The three ruffians were not mentioned until Samuel Pritchard's Masonry Dissected (1730) and were not named. They were first named Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelum in Three Distant Knocks (H Serjeant, 1760).
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  #28  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:16 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Do I understand you correctly Pierre you are proposing that Juwes has no connection with either Jews or masons? if so i fully agree on the second point on the first i am undecided and open to another interpretation.
Steve, I do not propose anything like it. But I would like to construct a new method. And I strongly recommend new thinking and abandoning of old thinking to get new answers. And it sounds like you are on the right track since you are open to other ideas. But how would you actually do it? If you try to answer the questions more radically, what would the answers be?

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Given that i do not think the text is linked to the murder I have no set point of view on what it might allude to if it does.
So you have no bias and that is good for your thinking.

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I have checked online and cannot find the word Juwes,
Oh, you did have some bias anyway, since you remembered the word "Juwes" and looked for it. And like others, you get the same result. You cannot find the word Juwes. Still inside the box banging our heads against the walls...

other than linking it to the text in question. i first checked this when Stephen Knights book was published long ago, there was no entry for the word then either.

Quote:
I see David is saying much the samething.
if you have different information, what is it?
I do not have information but dictionaries usually have. If you would like to answer the second question (instead of practicing the contents of the question) - what would your answer be?

Steve
Kind regards, Pierre
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  #29  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:18 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Have you a source that supports this claim? The three ruffians were not mentioned until Samuel Pritchard's Masonry Dissected (1730) and were not named. They were first named Jubela, Jubelo, and Jubelum in Three Distant Knocks (H Serjeant, 1760).
Hi John,

http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/hiram.htm

Regards, Pierre
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  #30  
Old 03-06-2016, 02:22 PM
DJA DJA is offline
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"The Hiram Key" is an interesting read.
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